Ep #141: Taking the High Road with Andy Heller

Mikki: Welcome back to the podcast. I am excited. We have a great interview today and we have a gentleman on the podcast, which I'm very excited about. But before we dive into that, I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you to those who listen. And if you're new here, welcome. I'm really excited that you found the podcast and I want you to know that I pour so much love and care into this podcast. It is a free resource which I hope offers you inspiration, practical tips and ideas to move forward.

Mikki: I also do a lot of free workshops too, and I don't want you to miss out on those opportunities. So I have an ask of you. I would love it if you would go over and sign up for the next upcoming workshop. You can always find out about them at my website, which is mikkigardner.com/workshop.

Mikki: And there's also a place where you can sign up for the masterclass that I have. And if you sign up for this, you are then on my mailing list where you will get the information about all of the upcoming ways to work with me, whether that's a free workshop that's coming up, whether that's a new podcast that's come out or you can also find out about the audits that I offer, which is a low cost, high touch way for you to experience coaching and transformation in a short period of time. But you need to be on my list to find out about all of that.

Mikki: So I would love it if you would go over, sign up for the parenting masterclass, and then you will be in the know on all the things. So let's dive into today's episode.

Mikki: Today we have Andy Heller. He's a successful businessman. He is not a divorce professional, he's not an attorney or a mediator or a therapist or anything. What he is, is a man who went through divorce and in navigating his own divorce, he read countless books to help support him. And he realized that there is a crucial hole in the self-help space for men and women navigating divorce. And so he wrote the book, Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. And it's his way of giving back with the goal of making the divorce process easier for those who are considering it and for those that are already on the path.

Mikki: He's actually written other books in the real estate market. And so he had that talent. And he also will talk to us about the way he processes taking notes, learning, reading, doing all of these things. And he really has put together a field guide where he offers strategies and tools and tips that are armed with the experience and counsel of experts so that you can use these tips in your own life. It really is a great book. I hope you pick it up. And without further ado, let's take a listen to my conversation with Andy Heller.

Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother. And I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome back to the podcast. I am excited to have Andy Heller here with us today. Hi, Andy.

Andy: Mikki, thanks for having me.

Mikki: I'm excited about this conversation. I love your book. I love your mission here. And so I was glad to have you on. I did your bio, but I would love for, in your words, just to tell us kind of who you are, how you got here, and why you wrote the book.

Andy: I'll give it to you in like three or four minutes, Mikki.

Mikki: Perfect.

Andy: It is better than reading a boring bio, everybody. I'm a successful businessman. At least I hope I am. And I wrote two real estate investing books 20 years ago. I swore I would never write a book again because I'm a perfectionist and it's very laborious and you don't make money, the other part of it. So we all have different coping mechanisms when we're stressed, all right? My own is I just start to write. I don't sleep a lot. And I read self-help books and stuff like that.

Andy: So when my mom was passing away, Mikki, my notes when she was in hospice, actually became an article that got picked up in five newspapers in Mother's Day after she passed. So I'm going through my own turbulent divorce and I'm doing my notes, doing my little coping thing. I'm reading other divorce books. And they weren't bad. I'm a big believer, even the worst book, if you can get a point, it can help you. It's worth it. And I am that guy in every group of friends, Mikki, I'm pretty even keel.

Andy: I wasn't out to hurt my ex. It was a turbulent divorce, but I didn't wanna damage her. I didn't wanna shortchange her on support or, I'm that reasonable compromise oriented guy, all right? And so we were recommended by our co-parent counselor to go find a therapist because you guys got a lot of drama. So I like can't hurt. So I said I want a therapist who done a lot of work with divorced men. So I found this amazing woman. She was a wonderful brother for me. So something happened with my ex. I thought about it. I like, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm compromise oriented, I'm gonna be fair, but I'm not gonna react yet and give her my plan until I... Because I got my appointment with my therapist coming up.

Andy: I go and I see her. I said, this is what happened and this is what I'm gonna do. I've thought it through and I know this is reasonable. And she went into therapy speak, we know Andy, it's good that you think that way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you're not gonna do that. You're gonna do the opposite. And I went, but, but, but, but, as finally when I stopped with my butts and I actually closed my mouth and listen, Mikki, she was a hundred percent and my plan was a hundred percent wrong. It was at that moment that I realized even someone like myself who didn't have a desire to hurt my ex, I wasn't aware the degree at which I was emotionally compromised and not making good decisions.

Andy: Then I looked at my notes, I'm like, oh my God, I got an outline here for a book. And I began a seven year project of interview and field experts. So what's different about my book and my journey is that this isn't my business. I've got successful businesses. I wrote this as my payback to thank everybody else for the help. I'm not a counselor. I'm not a attorney, I'm not a judge. I went and I interviewed all these field experts in the divorce space and I took their guidance and I put it into kind of a best practice manual because most people don't have time to read 10 books. They might have time to read one is two or three hours. And as you know by the style I did, it's 46 different tips, a section about the right divorce structure. Is divorce the path for you attorney? And all the preparation stuff.

Andy: A big segment about how to deal with the kids. [laughter] A big segment about how to deal with your ex and then co-parenting with somebody you couldn't live with. And those are the four sections. I'll end with, I'm kind of humbled that you've seen I've got over 100 5-star reviews from the therapy community especially. So I think hopefully my book can help make it easier. So that's my story. [laughter]

Mikki: Oh, well, I love it Andy. And I really applaud you because I think that's what I found interesting. It really is sort of like that feel guide of here's some common questions, here are some things that everybody goes through. And I love that you take the book from sort of the number one complaint at the very beginning. You set the tone. So can you tell us sort of what is that number one divorcee complaint?

Andy: The divorcee complaint is?

Mikki: Yeah, how to deal with it.

Andy: Well, pretty much the number one complaint any divorcee will say is no matter what I say, he or she will do the opposite. They're not gonna listen. What you'll notice is a lot of the guidance, Mikki, is unilaterally based. And this is a really powerful message to readers because you can't control this person. You couldn't control them when you live together. And it's not gonna get better when you're apart. The one thing you can control is you and your actions. Now a lot of the guidance is designed to eventually get your former spouse to adjust his or her behavior so it's easier to work with them. But again, the control and the steps are things that you can do yourself that can make that hopefully happen.

Mikki: And I think that's where our messages are so aligned, right? I never talk about how you change the other person 'cause that's impossible and futile. But how do you show up in a way that you end up feeling good at the end of the day where you can put your head on the pillow and say, you know what? I might have made mistakes. I might have been like you said, sort of emotionally engaged, but I'm doing the best I can. And that's really all we can ask of ourselves. So there were a couple things that stood out to me in the book that I really appreciate. Your love for therapy and support, right? There is a constant message of seek help, seek support. You cannot do this alone. And so I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about this because I think this is a message we all need to hear.

Andy: I'm sure you have listeners that run the gamut. Those that don't believe in therapy, never been to a therapist. Those that might have tried it once. And those that are avid supporters. To answer your question, I'm gonna answer it on two levels for yourself again, myself, Mikki, I'm a pretty grounded person. I'm a very reasonable person. And I found a therapist, particularly one I asked for one who worked with divorced men. She was amazing. And again, the number of times I went into her office and I left with a different plan, I cannot count.

Andy: So if a successful businessman, grounded guy, not out to harm his ex can have this kind of a powerful result of therapy, guys and ladies, we could really... It cannot hurt. It cannot hurt. And your friends, your family, they're not the sounding board 'cause they're on Team John or Team Sally.

Andy: You don't wanna be speaking to somebody on Team John or Team Sally. You wanna be speaking to somebody who's trained to help you through the path you're going down. The other part of therapy that I talked about in the book is your children. We divorcees cannot be both the disruptor in their lives and the healer. They need an advocate who is looking out for their best interest and they don't care about you and they don't care about your ex. So the benefit of a children's therapist, not only for your children's emotional wellbeing, is probably the most powerful gift you can give your kids during divorce. And as you know in the book we talk about the different types of children therapy, the time in, really, really important. I can say on a personal level, we did this with our children and I've got friends in my circle who went through divorce and they didn't do it. And our kids are pretty well adjusted, given the fact that their life got blown up a number of years ago.

Mikki: And I think that's to the point that it can be a source of resilience. It's like we're all gonna go through adversity in life. And so really giving your children all of the tools and everything that they need to use it as a point of resilience and learning how to grow through the difficulty is such a powerful message. And I appreciate that. I'd love for everyone obviously to read the book, but I think it would be helpful for us to sort of talk about maybe a couple of the tips or the couple of the key things that you're like, if there's anything I could tell you, boom, here's a couple of the things I wanna tell you.

Andy: All right. Well, one of my favorite chapters to write about was, and this actually I spoke with my own therapist and told her I'm writing the book and I said, there are some business principles that we are taught for high conflict business situations. I think this can work in divorce. And she said, Andy, not only can it work in divorce, you're onto something that is not in other books. So I'll give you an example. You change the way you communicate with your ex. So in many divorcees will say, no matter what I say, he's gonna say no. No matter what I say, she's gonna shoot it down.

Andy: Okay. So you need to change the style of your communication to always be asking questions. So for example, you know Mikki, I don't know about what's going on in your house, but little Johnny's really complaining about ballet. It is just miserable. What do you suggest? Okay. So you know you want little Johnny to play basketball with his buddies. And if you offer that, then it's gonna be shot down. So you bring in a business tool to change the style of your communication. So you're always asking a question, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And hopefully within two, three or four exchanges, you get your former spouse to an answer. It might not be the exact answer you want, but you let your spouse own the answer that's pretty close to what you wanna do in the first place.

Andy: And then your answer at the end of the email, oh my goodness, I really like your suggestion. I'm so glad I asked you. And then you hang up the phone and you start laughing because it worked. [laughter] So other tools, never use the words but or you in any communications 'cause it puts the recipient on the defensive. These little things can really help 'cause probably the number one complaint post-divorce is around communication.

Mikki: Hundred percent.

Andy: So if you change how you are communicating with your ex, what you get in return can hopefully make it easier for you to manage your children's lives.

Mikki: Yes. This is actually one of the chapters that I had flagged to talk about because I think this is such a key component that we discussed and you brought up something that I wanna sort of double click on because it will take time to make it happen, right?

Mikki: Yes.

Andy: And we have to be willing to commit to trying something new. And this is where it's all about is this aligned with what I want? Is this aligned in the direction? What you just said was, you're wanting to get a result that you are happy with, but it's also about showing up in a way that you feel good about. And so as long as you're checking those boxes, then you're like, okay, now I gotta actually commit to it to see over time if it changes 'cause the first time it might be an epic fail. The second time it might be received a little less but still. And so we can't give up after one try. I think it's just important to sort of double click on that because we have to be willing to try.

Andy: Another powerful message I'll offer during our discussion today is the words quid pro quo, get rid of 'em. Get rid of 'em. If you get a request from your ex and you can accommodate that request and it's in the best interest of your children, you say yes. Even if it's not reciprocated. Why? Why? Because eventually, almost always, that relationship with your ex improves and you will get yeses to your request. So often, particularly in the months and years after initial separation, Mikki, well, he's not switching his schedule for me when my sister's visiting, I'm not gonna give him this time he wants. Don't do that. Your answer always, you know what? I can accommodate that without much difficulty. It's great for the kids to see your family. Sure. And you keep asking nicely.

Andy: And there's a great story in the book where a divorcee was given this advice from a therapist and the therapist said, within two years, you'll start getting yeses. She was wrong. It took six months. So I can't say this is an easy thing to do 'cause like all right, I'm saying yes and he or she's saying no. That ain't fair. You know what, divorce isn't fair, but you gotta be strategic about what you're doing and in the end of the day, if you can say yes and your children benefit, you say yes, that's it. End of story.

Mikki: I love that. I read that in the book many times and I think it's really important 'cause two things I was hearing in my head come up, I always try to put myself in the listener's shoes. One was that old adage, it's applied to marriage but I apply it to all of life. You can be right or you can be happy. And so I think that's really important. But I can hear the person saying well why should I take the high road? Why should I keep saying yes when the other one doesn't? And I think what you just said is so important because at the end of the day, if it is in your children's best interest and in their wellbeing, that is just what you do. And so if that becomes like your golden rule, your way to follow or funnel through what do I do? I think that's a beautiful one.

Andy: Thank you.

Mikki: And then hopefully in time, like you said, it will come back. It may or may, like there's some people that don't, but you know what, you feel better.

Andy: I'll tell you a funny backstory before we go to the next question. If I had to do again though, I would change the name of the book and I'll tell you why. Take the high road is given the impression that, oh, this writer's saying just compromise everywhere and say yes. No, no. That's not the message of the book. If you say yes to most things, let's say you're pre-divorce. Alright. One of the things that in a chapter of pre-divorce we talk about it's important that you give your attorney two or the three goals. See, this is what I want accomplish, everything else compromise.

Andy: So the vast number of things you're compromising, but the attorneys focusing on the two or three things that are really important to you. So that the optics on that really will favor you. Taking the high road actually results in you saving money and reducing your stress.

Andy: Just like in a marriage, you pick your battles, okay? So it's not about just giving in everywhere, it's about being strategic, being smart, and yeah, compromising on things that frankly aren't on your list of two or three most important things.

Mikki: Yeah, that's such a good point. I wanna keep going on this communication, 'cause I think you're right. Like this is the biggest frustration point for so many people, either pre or post divorce. And you have six points that you make about effective communication, and I'd love to ask you about a couple that I found really interesting.

Andy: Ask. Far away.

Mikki: Okay. So I think one, we just covered the first one, which is be brief, informative, friendly, and factual. Right?

Andy: Yeah.

Mikki: Which I think pretty clear. I think the agree to disagree falls underneath that, that what we've been talking about. But you have one that's very specific that I'm curious about, which is don't read emails after 3:00 PM. Can you tell us about that one?

Andy: Yeah, and this is about self-help. If you're like a lot of people, but let me just take a step back.

Mikki: Yes.

Andy: This book is not about Andy Heller and Andy Heller's divorce. The opposite, I interviewed a bunch of divorcees who landed in good places and as I said, the attorneys and counselors, et cetera, et cetera, therapists, but this came from me. Okay? If you're like a lot of people, all right? You get things on your mind, all right? And your sleep and your rest is really important to you functioning as an employee, as a parent, and whatever your other responsibilities are. And if you're like a lot of divorcees, particularly the first months and years, reading messages from your ex serves to elevate your stress, all right?

Andy: So I actually took the 3:00 PM and made it by noon. I did all my divorce work and business in the morning, other than logistics. Logistics, if little... Suzzy has to be picked up at three o'clock, you gotta be texting about that, but the things that required thought, and other than logistics, I did it in the morning and the benefit was massive, Mikki, 'cause I got caught up the rest of the day in business and other events and it was further from my mind.

Andy: So in other words, the high stress of the day was in the early part, and the normal day was in the latter part, which meant by the time it was time for bedtime, I was already winding down. This is important for you getting the sleep and rest you need to be able to function. So I'll give an example of why it's so important. My kids have grown up, they forgot much of when they were young, but they still bring up when we were going to an amusement park in bumper to bumper traffic, when dad fell asleep in the car and I bumped the car in front of me. What they don't know is that dad was sleeping three or four hours a night, and that was the worst of the worst, okay? So the need for you to get rest and be healthy is paramount, and managing your communications tends to be a big part of it 'cause that's the number one stress producer during divorce, and money, of course.

Mikki: Yeah. Andy, I love that you put that in there and that it's your personal story, but it's so clear, and anybody can feel that way, because it is the one thing that goes, and often, especially with moms, we put everybody first, but especially in times of stress, taking care of yourself, learning how to communicate in ways that actually don't pull you down, but help you maintain all the things you just said are so important. And there's one other one that I think is sort of similar here too, but I do love that you wrote this, 'cause again, it's very aligned with our messaging, but I love that there's a man sort of saying this in your beautiful words, but write two emails and send only one.

Andy: Oh yeah. This is such a simple message, but it is brilliant, it's helpful, and it's kind of crazy, Mikki, but it's super fun. Tell him off.

Mikki: It's fun, yeah.

Andy: Tell her off, but don't press send, then go and write the nice vanilla message using the tips that I give you in the communication chapters, and that's what you send. But you got that off your chest and you're like, Oh man, I feel good, 'cause I told her off. I just forgot to press send.

[laughter]

Mikki: Exactly. I love that. And you brought up another point that I wanted to touch on, which you talk about having a vanilla message, which at the front, I was like, oh, where's he going with this? I'd love for you to talk about, especially as it relates to communicating and talking with our kids, what that vanilla messaging sounds like.

Andy: Well, I'll give you a great one. Oh, hey mom, we just came back from dad's house and we just met his new girlfriend. Oh, she's so nice. She's so nice. Oh, I'm glad you had a good time, guys. Let's go ahead and talk about what we're gonna have for dinner. Okay? You can't get specific about stuff like that with your kids, very vanilla. You might wanna know, you might be curious. You can't go there. Can't go there, all right? You take what is offered, you don't pry. The only exception to this, Mikki, is if you hear something that suggests that you're not safe in mom's house or in dad's house, then it's okay.

Andy: If they're safe with your ex, none of your business. Okay? So when you're sending a message to your ex via text, via email, no snide, no digs or cuts, just keep it strictly business. And maybe one good thing to do is to pretend that you're actually communicating with a colleague of yours at work who's maybe one notch above you. You're not gonna try to make a joke that you're not sure how it will land. You're not gonna have pry, strictly business. Keep it vanilla.

Mikki: Yeah, I think it's such a great way to put it. So is there another tip from your book that no one ever told you that you wished you'd known?

Andy: The big thing I wish somebody pulled me aside and told me in the first few months is, what I talk about in the book, divorce is a marathon, not a sprint. Almost always, it will get better. And people are so hyper-focused on what my life looks like right now. It's about what you want your life to look like in 12 or 24 months, all right? And you've gotta be patient for some of these things to fall into place, all right? And approaching divorce in that manner is such a healthy way to do this, Mikki. It'll keep you from getting down, and that's important. You gotta keep your spirits up, 'cause you gotta look at what you want your life to be like in 12 or 24 months. That's a big thing.

Andy: One of my most favorite chapters writing about was perseverance. And this is actually really, really, really a big deal 'cause in most households, you have a division of the household needs, all right? Dad is a super cook. He handles the cook and mom is a primary breadwinner. She brings in 80% of the household income or dad does the financials, mom does this or that, whatever. One of the most stressful parts of divorce is that you've gotta become competent in everything, and this is something that was one of the most interesting things I was writing about, because it tends to be overlooked.

Andy: People don't recognize the stress that comes with taking on roles that maybe you are not as good at, all right? So the dad who's not good at balancing a checkbook, maybe needs to meet with an accountant or take a basic finance course, okay? Because you can't depend on your ex to do that any longer.

Andy: One of my own personal stories, when my ex and I split up, she's a wonderful homemaker, Mikki, just great homemaker. Great mom, great in the kitchen, but I was an active dad, very involved with my kids' life, but I worked really hard. When we split up, my kids were on a gluten-free diet, lactose intolerant, and no nuts. So imagine learning how to cook with these restrictions. Buying the kids snacks for elementary school, strawberry flavored rice bar, vanilla flavored rice bar, blueberry flavored rice bar. [laughter] You notice a trend? There's nothing. There's nothing. They went to a birthday party. I had to go to a gluten-free bakery and get them dessert. But I rolled up my sleeves, I said, I am not gonna be mac and cheese dad. I got out some gluten-free cookbooks, and I cooked some basic stuff. I bought a bunch of gluten-free chicken nuggets. That was my insurance policy, and I made it work.

Andy: And whether you are somebody going back into the workforce, whether you are somebody learning to cook for the first time, someone who wasn't really involved in the picking up from school and arranging play dates, you gotta get good, at least competent at everything, and that can be really, really stressful. So taking a step back as you're splitting up, and taking an inventory of what are the functions needed to run that house, run your kids' lives that you're not particularly confident or good at, write them down and then figure, okay, I'm gonna take a cooking course, all right? And there could be something social around that too, all right? I am going to get a list of all my kids' friends, and meet them.

Andy: There's a great story in the book of a divorced dad who was splitting up and he wanted all the parents of his kids' friends to be comfortable to having their kids alone in his house. He correctly predicted, I'll tell you a real quick story. He had a birthday party shortly after separation, and invited tons of kids for his daughter, tons of friends, and his daughter wanted a sleepover. The only kids that came were kids from divorced families, and one girl who was from widowed. The kids where their families were together, none of the parents were comfortable. So what he did after that, on Friday night dinners, he had a mystery guest family. He invited these families with their kids as dinner guests. They came, they saw a safe home. They saw a dad that was trying. And after that time, he never had to worry about it, but he actually recognized this could be a problem, so I have to solve this. And his solution were the Friday night dinners.

Mikki: Yeah, so smart. So smart. Yeah. Which I think again, sort of just double-clicking on the great points that you're making is learning how to be competent. And I always talk about letting yourself be good enough, right? It's like just the basics. Like what is it that you need to just be good enough at, and what is that gonna look like, and can you be okay with that? Because again, for moms, a lot of us, it's a lot of that perfectionism, wanting to be the best at everything, and learning how to accept and acknowledge good enough, I think is really important.

Mikki: And then to your other point, really asking for help. We cannot do it all. And building that network of support, like you just said, right? Like, sometimes we have to structure it and build and let people come in and teach them how to help us, right? But it also could look like getting a sitter or getting someone to come over, so that you can have five minutes, depending on what your parenting time looks like. Building up friends that are gonna be there to support you. And it doesn't happen overnight, but it's that consistent identifying the need and asking for support to get that need met.

Andy: Yeah. The last thing I'll say there, this is really overlooked. Taking an inventory of the skills that you need to manage your children's life on your own, and bringing in the support to make that happen. And I love what you said, you just have to be competent. And you know what, the other thing that I will say is that, kids can be very forgiving. The fact that they're seeing you try and make an effort, and let them know. Say, Hey, look, mom was really good with finances, guys and dad's kind of learning as we go, all right? You burn a meal. Well, guess what guys? I'm calling Dominos or here's the chicken nuggets, okay? I tried, all right? This one's off the list, all right?

Andy: So just let your kids know you're trying hard. Let your kids know it's not easy, and that's okay. And be a little kinder to yourself whether you're the mom trying to be super mom or dad, give yourself credit for trying. Don't expect yourself to be a perfectionist because it is not easy, but it will get better. Divorce is a marathon, it's not a sprint.

Mikki: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think that's such a beautiful place to sort of wrap this conversation because it really is about having more kindness, more softness towards yourself, more compassion, right? Because for us to be able to parent that way, we have to also be able to do that for ourselves. And you give so many great tools and strategies in the book on how to do exactly that. So I'm gonna ask you one question that I ask all my guests, and then I want you to tell everyone where they can find your book and learn more about it. But this is Co-Parenting with Confidence. And so how do you define confidence and how does it show up in your life?

Andy: Co-Parenting with confidence is, to me, it's when you put some thought into something that you're trying to do for your children. I'd say something that you plan for a few days or what, like a birthday party or a trip, a sleepover, how you're redoing the rooms. And then you look at the kids and you see them happy and carefree, there's nothing, nothing when you're getting divorced that makes you feel as good as that. And it won't happen every time, guys, and you gotta laugh off the ones where it doesn't. You don't hit it out of the park, but when you try to make that party special and your daughter or your son has a great time, you respectfully, your ex when he or she comes over, when you put together that first or second or third trip with dad or trip with mom, and the kids have a good time, and the way you put it together, it's a home run, Mikki, and you'll feel like a rock star, and you earned it.

Mikki: Yeah. Oh, that's a great answer. Thank you Andy. So tell people where they can find and purchase the book.

Andy: Sure. The book is on Amazon, guys. Just go there and Google Andy Heller. Don't get my real estate books, get the divorce book or put Andy Heller, Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. We've got a website. You can reach out to me there if you wanna have a dialogue. And if my book helps you, I'd love a review. I'll close by saying everybody, I'm a little bit different from everybody else. I didn't write this book to make money. I know this sounds corny. I wrote to give back to all those who helped me land in a great place. And I realize in reading all these other books that people pretty much need everything in one place, I hope I did that. I've tried to accomplish that. I brought in the council of people who are a lot smarter than me.

Andy: And again, people don't buy the book, and it defeats the purpose of writing it. So please buy it, buy it for somebody you might know who is struggling. And it is not just, again, for those thinking about getting divorced. I probably would say 60% of the book is about co-parenting and what happens in the months and years after divorce.

Mikki: Yeah. Well, it really is such a great resource and I really am grateful that you wrote it, that you put it out there 'because we need more, I think, especially really compassionate male voices, how to move through this. And so you've done that, and I'm very grateful for that. So thank you Andy, and thank you for coming on and sharing with us today.

Andy: Anytime you want me back, I love the conversation, Mikki. And thank you for the compliment and I really appreciate it, and I've enjoyed it.

Mikki: Oh, and one more thing, the legal stuff. This podcast is solely intended for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for any medical advice. Please consult your physician or a qualified medical professional for personalized medical advice.

Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit coparentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.

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