Ep #83: Navigating Stress with Dr. Serena LoDuca

Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey. I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother. And I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, we'll get ready. And let's dive into today's episode. Mikki: Welcome friend. I'm excited that we're back here, today I have a great episode for you. It's all about navigating stress in different alternative ways with Dr. Serena LoDuca. We all know that stress is an inevitable part of life. We all feel it, we all have stressors, but way too often, divorce and co-parenting increases stress to almost unmanageable levels. I know that the women that I talk to feel so much stress and that stress has really negative impacts on every part of us, from our body to our emotions and to our soul. And that's why I wanted to talk about stress so much in the last few episodes. And today I wanted to offer you a different perspective on it. And that's what Dr. Serena is gonna do. She's gonna offer us some tools and some ways to navigate and increase your tolerance for stress, not get rid of the stress because it's a natural thing that happens in life. Mikki: But really what she talks about today is learning how to build your tolerance so that you can handle the stress that comes your way. And listen, another thing is, we are not supposed to know how to navigate the incredible stress that we are under when it comes to something like divorce or conflict in co-parenting. It is way too much. And unless we already have the skills and the tools in place to be able to handle it, we shouldn't expect ourselves to be able to go through it with flying colors. And that's why I wanted to talk to Dr. Serena today so that she could use her experience as an acupuncturist to be able to help us each identify the stress that we're under. And then once we've identified it and accepted that we're under stress, what are some tools and tangible ways that we can start to reduce some symptoms and make ourselves more capable of handling it in the future? Mikki: She has been so helpful for me in my life and I wanted to bring her to you so that you could just hear a little bit of the different ways that she offers in helping her patients learn how to navigate stress and pain in a different way. And listen, you might not have a Dr. Serena in your life. You might not have a coach in your life. You might not have a psychologist in your life yet. But here's what I want you to just consider. Is this something or someone that you need on board to help you? Listen, we cannot manage this all on our own and we shouldn't expect ourselves to. Reaching out for help, building the team to help you learn how to manage the stress and deal with the life that you have in front of you is imperative. And I want you to just consider as you listen to this episode, what would be the perfect team for you to have around you? Mikki: Would it be a doctor? Would it be a therapist? Would it be a coach? Would it be an acupuncturist? Would it be all of the above? Listen, whatever it is for you, I want you to find ways to get yourself the support that you need. Because part of learning how to manage life differently, learning how to co-parent really well, is learning how to delegate and learning how to ask for help. And building that support team that you need to have in your corner so that you can navigate whatever comes your way. You are not alone in this journey. And I hope that our conversation today helps you see that there are so many different options out there. It could be a meditation teacher, a yoga instructor. There's so many different ways. I want you to open your mind and listen curiously to this today and tell me what comes up for you. Without further ado, let's take a listen. Mikki: Welcome back to the podcast. And today we have a very special guest that I am so excited about for you guys. And it is Dr. Serena as I know her. Serena is my acupuncturist and I am new to this and she's amazing. And we've had lots of interesting little conversations while I'm laying there on the table with all the little needles all over me. And I thought, what an amazing person to bring to my audience. And so Serena, thank you for coming today. I appreciate it so much. Dr. Serena: Thank you for having me. Mikki: Yeah, and I'm sure you get the little needles comment all the time. [laughter] Dr. Serena: Yeah, they call me needles sometimes. Actually my nickname. Mikki: Oh gosh. Well I love it. Well, I would love for you to tell my audience what it is that you do, 'cause some people may not even be familiar with what you do and I'm always fascinated by all of it. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Dr. Serena: Yeah. I'm a doctor of acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. And what that means is I'm don't only just do acupuncture, which we're all familiar with, but it's not like the movies. Basically, I put needles to calm people down. There's not hundreds, there's about 12 on average. And what that does is it acts on your nerve system and your immune system like hormones and release chemicals such as serotonin and end dopamine to your bloodstream to relax people or address pain. Also, I'm an herbalist, I actually have an onsite herbal pharmacy, which kinda acts like a low grade pharmaceutical that builds in your system. And I create these low grade pharmaceuticals by pairing certain herbs. And I do things like Qigong and tai chi and meditation and things like cupping therapy. We're all familiar with, with Michael Phelps and McGregor, the big circles. And something called Quasha, which is similar to cupping therapy, but it's a muscle scraping technique. And I also incorporate moxibustion which is just a burning of a certain herb to simulate blood flow to a certain area of the body. Mikki: Awesome. How did you get into this, if I might ask? Dr. Serena: So kinda funny story. I was getting my master's in speech and language pathology and turns out I am tone deaf. No one really tells you that you can't be tone deaf when you're going getting your masters in speech pathology. I was pretty discouraged when I was near the end and didn't really know what to do. 'Cause that was my only plan. My mom though, was getting acupuncture for an autoimmune disease. Her MD actually recommended that she goes to acupuncture and she was having a lot of success and she was trying to convince me to go to her appointment with her being like, you'll love this. Like it might be a great career path for you. And I was like, absolutely not. That's witchcraft. No way. And finally she convinced me and I went and I absolutely fell in love with it and for school the next day and after four years I graduated my doctorate and I'm the only doctor in Acupuncture traditional Chinese medicine as of right now in Oakland County, Michigan. Mikki: Oh wow. Okay. Awesome. Well, I love this and I always love that sometimes moms do know best. I wanna give a shout out to the moms out there. Sometimes they can see something that we can't see, but I really I'd love to hear from you, what is it that you think, because why I was thinking this would be so important for my audience is if there's one thing that we all deal with in co-parenting and divorce, it is stress. As humans, you and I have talked about it. Stress is a normal part of life. But when we get divorced and when we're trying to figure out co-parenting after divorce, it layers on an entire new amount of stress. And so many of us are living in almost a survival state after divorce where the stress is so intense and sometimes we become accustomed to it and we don't even realize how stressed out we are anymore. And we don't really know how to deal with it. We don't know how to identify it, we don't know what it looks like and we don't even know that we're suffering from it. And so I'm curious, what do you see in women or I'm sure a lot of people talk as you're working on them, what is it that you see women really struggling with as when it comes to stress? Dr. Serena: Vocalizing why they're stressed? Number one, Women have a hard time identifying the exact stressors. Men for some reason are able to be like, this is stressing me out and this is why. I don't know why. I think maybe that's the way the male brains work, but women, because we tend to deal with lots of problems women's brains, we can multitask. And that's, we have a hard time identifying exactly at that moment what is the cause of our stress the most and how we're going to address it. We just feel overwhelmed. And that's hard because we're not... Divorce, death, things like that, they're not things that we usually deal with. When something so overwhelming happens, we don't know the next step and how to address what is or identify what the next step is. One thing I do recommend, I'm not a psychologist for the record, but I do recommend that my patients write out lists of things that are stressing them out then make a plan from that, how to deal with it step by step. 'Cause when it's on paper, it's more defined and you can always scratch it off and figure out, okay, well all that's not really stressing me out, it's actually this. Mikki: Yeah. That's interesting. In my work we do something called a thought download. And it's like getting everything in your head out onto the paper because then you can actually see what's going on. Half the time you're like, no wonder I feel like crap with all of that in my head. When we see how negative it is. But then other times it's just, again that sense of overwhelm that continues and just starts a cycle. And that's a really interesting point that you made between men and women. 'Cause a lot of times we, there are differences between typically men and women and they are good at it. And especially men in divorce can compartmentalize. I have trouble saying that word, but it's a muscle that we have to learn is how to compartmentalize what's going on. And maybe it's for the same thing that you just said is they're very good at identifying what's going, like what the stressor is or what the issue is where we women haven't been taught to speak up to vocalize what's going on. We haven't been encouraged to feel all of our feelings quite the opposite. And so we just become accustomed to really not listening to how we're feeling or addressing it. And that overwhelm just builds. Dr. Serena: Yes. We're usually taking care of everyone else that's why. But also I do think that women, we can do things, men can't, men can do things we can't. And one of the benefits of being a woman is we can multitask, unfortunately I don't think we have a hard time focusing on one, that's it. 'Cause it's like women can do the dishes, watch the children, think about the dry cleaning being out the next day and men usually are like, dry cleaning is out, check, this, check, trash out, check. It's just, I think that's why but I don't know. I mean there could be many reasons I'm sure. Mikki: Yeah. So how do you see it showing up? So overwhelm you said was one thing for women. When you are guiding women through reducing stress, what are some of the things that you help them with? Because it's just for people to start to understand what stress might look like, what those symptoms might look like. Sometimes we may not even be able to identify them yet. I'm curious how you help your clients identify what's going on. Dr. Serena: Yeah. Usually when I see my clients it usually comes out as anxiety at that point. Palpitations, can't control their thoughts, racing thoughts, hyperventilating, flushing in the face, sweating, that's when it hits the peak. But how I usually help them is giving them some tools like meditation, being mindful, working on what mindfulness even is. How to control your thoughts really. Which is hard to do, but it takes practice and just being able to breathe and bring your back yourself step back is a skill. But it's what I, how to help my patients do. And also I set them up with counselors and things like that. But generally that's what I think. Mikki: When you talk about teaching them to be able to calm their racing thoughts and you said meditation and mindfulness. How do you explain that to people? 'Cause everyone has a different approach. I'd love to hear how you define that being useful. Dr. Serena: Yes. So start with mindfulness. Mindfulness isn't just being mindful of what you're doing. It's more of just being present in that moment and picking in your feelings, your physical feelings, the events around you, your surroundings and accepting them and not putting any judgment or meaning to them. One of my best examples is when you're driving a car on your early morning commute, you are days out and you forgot the last five minutes, you aren't being mindful, if you are sitting there driving, paying attention to the road, not think of anything else but what you are doing in that moment. That's mindfulness. Not, Oh that car drove in front of me, cut me off there being a bad person doesn't matter. Just, oh okay that happened. Move on. You can do that with your thoughts too in meditation. Meditations a jump off this. Like I said, the highest form of meditation, it's clearing your thoughts. Everyone tries to do that first. It's unfortunately takes a lot of effort to get there, but if you can get to the mid-level of just sitting with your thoughts and the thought comes to you, okay, I thought that negative or bad and move on to the next thought. You can begin to learn how to control your thoughts and not spiral and think worst case scenario. 'Cause we always go to worst case numbers. That's the best case unfortunately. Mikki: Yeah. Dr. Serena: That's mindfulness and meditation's a good way to get there. I usually start with the body scan, I do that as a form meditation because it's physical, it's easy for us to grasp on to. And then slowly leveling up. Mikki: What is body scan? Dr. Serena: So you're, I usually recommend patients do this in bed, goes so easy to explain, if you're laying down in bed, can't sleep, mind racing, focus on your feet and think, okay, my feet are getting heavy, they're relaxing and they're sinking down to the bed. And you should be able to start feeling your feet getting heavy and melting downwards into the bed. After a while you move up to your ankle, your calves, your knees, your thighs, all the way up to the top of your head. On the way though, I usually stop and think of my breathing, my abdomen, my abdomen's getting heavy and falling down by my core. And each breath your bra goes up and then my ribs, they expand, then they collapse, every breath and your shoulders would fall back and relax and melt to the bed. You're focusing on one thing and you're being mindful of how it feels and it's an easy thing for you to grasp onto. It's also something easy you can go back to. If your mind does race, you can always go back, oh, I left up on my shoulders and if people fall asleep during it, it's fine cause you're in bed 'cause that's the most relaxed. Mikki: Yeah, that's, I love that and it's a very tangible thing that we can do. And just for all moms, but definitely moms of the littles. This is something you can do with them and it is a huge plus because you teach them how to do this for themselves. And oftentimes moms are always like, oh, I don't have time to do this. Well when your kids having a meltdown or maybe a little bit after, there's always points where you can actually bring them into it. And I just like to point that out 'cause we're always looking for excuses around meditation and mindfulness because we don't wanna do it. But it is, we were talking one day, it really is the jumping off point and the ability to be able to get out of your head and into your body. I think is what Dr. Serena is talking about here. If we're feeling stress and anxiety, we're not gonna solve it on a thinking level. What I think it was Einstein that said, you can't solve the problem with the same thing that caused it. And so we have to really get into the body. Dr. Serena: So maybe there's the difference in traditional Chinese medicine, there is no difference between the brain and your body. You get anxious, you're racing thoughts, you get palpitations, your body's connected to your brain. But by being able to control your thoughts, you will be able to control the anxiety and their overwhelming feelings. I'm not saying get out your head and into your body, I'm saying connect your head more to your body, if that makes sense. Try the link yourself. So once, here's an example. I have a patient. It's amazing. Traditional Chinese medicine, we take pulse, our patients pulses every time they come in. And one of my patients can breathe and have a, I'm taking his pulse and he can breathe and his pulse rate will be like at a 95. And in the second he can bring it down all the way to 60. It's amazing. It's because he has that mind body connection already linked. I'm not saying everyone can do that, but I'm saying is that if you work on mindfulness meditation, you'll be able to do that. By doing that you can be more present and control your emotions and deal with stress better because you'll be control how your body reacts the stress. Mikki: I love that distinction. And right before we hit record, I was really interested in something that you had to say. And I think this is a perfect time to segue into it. But learning how to deal with stress in the body. And I love that you just pointed out that right sort of stress is going to happen, but it's building up the skill to be able to handle it. And so I'd love... You were talking about stress versus anxiety. And I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit more, because they're definitely words we hear a lot of. Dr. Serena: Yes, so stress is a normal human response to a stressor, like you ever... Darwinism, like we all grow and evolve as a species due to stressors. We are supposed to be able to handle these and move on and grow. Well, anxiety is more of a fight or flight, it's when we don't know how to handle it. So we get freaked, and we try to escape the situation. And the best way I tried to explain stress, it's kind of like alcohol. So when you're like... Well, when an 18-year-old drinks the first time, they don't have a tolerance and they're drunk after one drink, that would be like a low stress tolerance. And then you have the alcoholic, person with high alcohol tolerance or alcoholic, and they can do to excess, and you won't even know they're drunk, but they probably have liver disease. Same thing happens stress, you have the CEO under high stress, hardly know you are stressed but he's probably gonna have a heart attack. High stress tolerance, effects in your body, low stress tolerance, same things, we want to be in the middle ground, we want to be able to take on stress, normal amount of stress, recover from it, yes, it's going to be hard on our body, but we want to recover and know how to deal with it. Dr. Serena: Like you drink lots of water and you don't drink for a while afterwards. People who aren't getting the test, you get anxiety that the palpitations you get the overwhelming and your stress tolerance will continue to lower if you don't learn how to cope with it. So like teenagers, now they have such low stress tolerance. It's like too much homework and they panic, they freeze, you need to have the tools in order to adapt, and no one's teaching it or addressing it. And we're just kind of treating it like anxiety, and it's normal. Unfortunately, when you get hit with something like divorce, or things like that, that's a very stressful thing that I don't think anybody has the tools to deal with anymore. And we're expecting them to have all these tools and act appropriately when they when they can't. So learning the mindfulness and meditation and seeking out resources is I think the best way to up your stress tolerance so that you will be able to take on harder and harder things throughout life. Mikki: Yeah. So how do you build that? I mean, obviously, mindfulness and meditation, but what are some other ways? Do you have any examples of how you sort of can start to build that tolerance? Because I'd love to be able, like the CEO example, right? Was really, that hit home, right? Because that person is probably so stressed, but you don't see it. And if there's anything that moms do really, really well, it's juggle all of the balls in the air at any given time. But that doesn't mean that you're not under extreme stress. Dr. Serena: 'Cause he always delegates. Remember why? Because you can't take it all. Identifying what you can take on and when you need help, and how to get help. Also, do something for yourself. Like, I'm sorry, physical activity is one of the best ways to relieve stress. And on the list, prioritize, because you don't need to get everything done all the time. You like when knowing when it's okay to say, sorry, I can't do that. And then eventually, once you can handle the big things, you should be able to add more and more, kind of like just learning a new skill. Mikki: Yeah. I love that you brought that up? Because I think one of the things that I work with clients on is learning how to say no. Because we don't like to, we like to be able to say yes, and take care of everybody, as the caretaker, but learning how to say no, and letting no be a complete sentence is one of the best things you can do for you and everyone around you. But it allows you to do exactly that. Identify what is stressing you out and not letting yourself get to that point. Because we're hearing so much about anxiety. And we're watching our kids struggle, right with the amount of stress and emotional stress and anxiousness. That's right, they're living in a completely different world than we're living in and or that we grew up in, right so we're having to handle all these things. And I think so often it's like, okay, someone's super super anxious or you're going through divorce, so many doctors will say, Oh, well, you need medication to be able to get through this hard time. And I am not saying that medication isn't an amazing thing. That can be really, really helpful. Dr. Serena: It's there for a reason. Yeah. Mikki: But I don't think that it's the only option, right. And so many of my clients have come to me and said, I agreed to do it, because it was the only option out there. And I think that was part of why I wanted to have this conversation is that there are so many other ways to make to work on stress, and pain and healing. That aren't... It's not another pill to take. And so I talk a lot on this podcast about meditation and learning how to take care of yourself, so that you can reduce your stress, but I really wanted to have someone who's so wise and experienced like yourself, offering another option, right, offering other tools. Dr. Serena: So also, on the way pharmaceuticals is, the way I've always learned is drugs are there for a reason. And if you need them, they're a great band aid. If you're going through a tough time, you can't always, you know, you can't process all that emotion all the time. And that's why they are there. They're there to help. However, I do have, traditional Chinese medicine like herbs, they're low grade, so if you're going off of medication, I can help you because they do have withdrawal, doesn't matter if it's SSRI, you know, even though there has to be... They do have withdrawal symptoms, no matter how much you are on, so I can help you with that. Also, traditional Chinese medicine, herbs can help you sleep, it can help you manage your stress. There's one specifically for stress. Acupuncture is fantastic because it releases serotonin and dopamine into your bloodstream. And your blood brain barrier when we get flooded with cortisol. When you get stressed, you'll have a reserved serotonin dopamine there, so you won't be as anxious or overwhelmed. Same thing happens with meditation, things like that. Mikki: So talk a little bit more about... That hit home for me. So talk a little more about building up that reserve. What does that mean? Dr. Serena: So the brain obviously, we all know, we have receptors in our brain that bind to a certain drugs, right? Well, acupuncture works really well with certain drugs and doesn't work with others, surprisingly. So acupuncture can release natural opioids into the bloodstream. And Wranglers, and yes, they make you feel good and happy. But weirdly, if you're on an opioid, it won't work. Because of brain cell receptors. Same thing happens with an excess amount of serotonin and dopamine, because it calms down your nervous system. So you only have so many receptors in your brain. So when your serotonin and dopamine can't find because they're all blocked, because after I [0:27:07.2] ____ something, I call the acupuncture after high, it's like a yoga high, your receptors are full. So all those excess just hang out, when you get stressed, some of them unbind and cortisol binds. But as you build brain blood barrier opens, dopamine and serotonin also binds. So it dampers the effect of that stress. That makes sense. It's very sciency. And I'm trying to make it very simple. I'm not quite sure what to say. Mikki: Yeah, so I guess what I what I was getting at, too, is that. So if you were to do something like acupuncture, right? Did I understand correctly that when you do these and sort of, you release these into the system, that it builds you up, almost like a reservoir of them so that then when the natural stress of the day happens, you have more bandwidth, or you have more in the tank, so to speak, to be able to handle it. Dr. Serena: Exactly, yeah. Mikki: Okay. Yeah. So that's why I think this conversation is important, because while there's pharmaceuticals, while there's other things, there isn't just one approach to stress, right? We can't just just do one thing. It's almost like you really have to build up an entire little army of ways that you can handle your stress. And so that's, that's where I want people to walk away today is what are the things that I'm doing for myself, that are helping me sort of build up that reservoir so that when I get stressed, I don't end up depleted, exhausted? And you know, sort of having full manifestations, whether it's the palpitations, whether it's whatever symptom is happening, for people who have experienced, right, because I think what you pointed out was that stress is normal. Mikki: And we need to really build up our tolerance. And there's a lot of women and certainly people that I work with, they didn't get the tools. They didn't learn them, right. And now they're finding themselves in a position of extreme stress, right extreme overwhelm So how, what would your sort of first steps in the healing journey where you find yourself super, super stressed? What do you recommend that people can do? And how can they start to help themselves heal when they're in these really stressful times? Dr. Serena: In my experience, because I've actually, I suffered from extreme anxiety when I was younger, was accepting that, number one, I was extremely anxious, but I feel like if you're on this podcast you have. But secondly is there's apps on your phone, it's so simple, just download, like the calm app or meditation and just start there, find what you can gravitate towards, and we have resources in our community. I know multiple people that do meditation here, there's acupuncture, there's Chi Gong, tai chi, even Yoga is a forum, you can sign up for things, just do something for yourself that you seem to grasp on to. Also there's nothing wrong with finding psychologists, psychologists are referred to me all the time. I'm a resource for them. They can help you if you just ask, again, also, you can just try acupuncture. We're everywhere. [chuckle] Mikki: So for because there's a lot of people like very I don't know how many people in Michigan listen to this. But how do you know you have like, what should you be looking out for when shopping for an acupuncturist? Dr. Serena: So Michigan has interesting laws when it comes to acupuncturist, we just got licensed about two and a half years ago, you want to make sure they do have an LAC licensed acupuncturist behind their name. Number one, there's two different kinds. There is the Masters of Science and acupuncture, which I also have. And there's the DACM, you want to make sure they have the right initials and they're qualified. Secondly, we're very, we're all very different. There are, if you're not looking for anxiety, you might want to stir a little bit away from the fertility specialists. Because they're used to just seeing the same thing all the time. It's what we do, just a general acupuncturist. And I see how much time they spend with patients. Because it's the... Some acupuncturist spend a whole hour with the patient, and some will see you for 15 minutes. The ones that are willing to give you the extra tools aren't just going to do some pain management, they're probably going to be the one that are scheduling on half hour to the hour. If you're going for pain management, gung ho on the other one. [chuckle] But yes, we're all very different. And also it's kind of you got a shop a bit. Fortunately, it is a bit of a, the initial payments, usually pricey, but you're gonna have to shop, ask for referrals, read the Google reviews. Those are huge. That's the best I can do for you. Really? Mikki: Yeah. No, that helps. Because it's like a doctor, you never know until you, you know, sort of get in. But it's important to understand that, first they have the credentials, like you just said, and then really being willing to say what it is that you're struggling with. It sounds like and see if they're a good fit for that. Dr. Serena: Yes, and we're not all good at everything. So, but we will usually tell you what we're good at on our website. So if you're on a website, they usually, something's always pushed. Mikki: Yeah. So I hope that today, my audience has sort of gotten maybe a little bit of, I love the way that you talked about stress and anxiety, sort of the differences and being able to understand that we need to have the skills to be able to handle this, right. It's like building up your alcohol tolerance, which I'm not recommending that you work on. [chuckle] Mikki: Work on building up your stress tolerance, right? Like, that's a tolerance you want to have. And then when you have that, you also are able to teach your kids how to do that. Right, we can only teach our kids what we already have. And so it's always so important that we learn these things on our own. And I love the way that you sort of talked about those things. And most importantly, I really hope that listeners that maybe you haven't even thought of acupuncture, maybe you haven't thought of Chinese medicine, maybe you haven't thought of alternative approaches to just what sort of what's out there in mainstream Western, the Western medical world because there's so many things available. And like I said before, it's not just one thing, we've got to be able to build a whole toolbox, so that no matter what happens, we have the tool to fix it. And so I hope that this gave you some thoughts and some new ways new perspectives to look at. So since this is co parenting with confidence, I always love to ask the question, how do you define confidence for you? Dr. Serena: Confidence for me, is believing that I can accomplish something even if I don't know how to do it, do I have the ability, knowledge, I have to figure it out and take it on. As so, I've done a lot of things handy wise, I think just because I had confidence myself that I could figure it out as I went. Mikki: Yeah. I love that. And I think Serena, you're a great example of really having the tools and the confidence to be able to figure out what's going on. Right. As you said, you've struggled with anxiety, you've gone through a lot of things, dreams that didn't work out the way you thought they might, right. And those are all stepping stones, but you've been able to navigate that. And I think it's a real testament to the tools that you are now teaching others. And so thank you for doing. Dr. Serena: Thank you. Mikki: Thank you so much, Dr. Serena, for being with me today and for sharing with the audience, all of the different tools and ideas that you have, from your vast experience. As an acupuncturist and Chinese medicine doctor. I just want to thank Dr. Serena for her time. She has a very busy practice. And I'm so happy that she took a few moments to share her expertise, and her insight and her wisdom with us here. And listen, if you know someone who would benefit from this conversation, I really hope that you would share it with them. And if you haven't hit subscribe to the podcast, please do so just so that you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes that we have. Because I'm going to continually bring you as many wonderful guests, enlightening topics and inspiration so that you can make your co parenting easier and more joyful, more calm and more confident. So until next time, friend take really, really good care of you. Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit coparentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.