Ep #34: Interview with High Conflict Divorce Specialist Karen McMahon

In this episode Mikki has a conversation with High Conflict Divorce Specialist and Journey Beyond Divorce Founder Karen McMahon. Mikki and Karen discuss the signs and struggles of high conflict divorces, and how to create peace while co-parenting in a high conflict relationship. Karen discusses her process for clients and how they can learn to expect and accept the other person as a means to creating peace and empowerment. This episode is a must listen for anyone who is facing the challenges of co-parenting in a high conflict relationship and is ready to move forward. Karen McMahon is a Certified Relationship and Divorce Coach and Founder of Journey Beyond Divorce. She began divorce coaching in 2010 after recognizing that the pain of her divorce led her on a transformational journey into an incredible new life. Karen leads a national team of divorce coaches in supporting men and women around the world to become calm, clear and confident as they navigate divorce. Karen is the host of the acclaimed Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast, co-author of ‘Stepping out of Chaos: Turning Pain to Possibility” and creator of JBD’s exclusive 12 Step Divorce Recovery Program. Karen's Social Media and Podcast Links: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast  

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Full Episode Transcript:

Mikki: So one of the things that I was interested in that you said is, how do you help your clients find hope and finding peace in co-parenting with a high conflict spouse? Karen: Yeah. I'm gonna try and do this in a nutshell. Part of the work that me and my team of JBD coaches do is around emotional energy, and so I'm gonna try and describe this as simply as I can. When I feel like a victim and I feel helpless and hopeless, it's almost like I have this heavy moldy blanket on, I'm lethargic, I don't have any energy. One step up from that is when I'm angry, I got a little energy, I got a little kick, my dukes are up and I wanna beat the heck out of somebody. Those two levels of energy and hopefully, your listeners can relate to that. They're what we would call catabolic, and they suck the life out of us. Anabolic energy, which is life-enhancing energy, then begins at that third level. Karen: So we have a victim, we have conflict, both catabolic, life depleting, and then we have this gateway, which is forgiveness, which I know with your audience and mine is usually the F word, [chuckle] and forgiveness is never for the other person, it's for us, it's to cut the ties that bind us to bitterness and resentment. The way you make your way to peace... Peace is level five. So you go victim, you go conflict, you go forgiveness, and then compassion, and then peace. And so the way you find your way to peace is through the gateway of forgiveness, and it brings us back to the expecting and accepting, because if I can expect and accept that this is how John Doe shows up, then I can forgive him for whether that came from his family of origin or whatever it is. Karen: Once I can unplug from my bitterness and resentment, my ability to co-parent with compassion for my kids, compassion for myself, and hopefully over the course of time, a little compassion for my ex, brings me so close to peace. Peace is actually... The level five is about, where's the opportunity amidst this struggle? How can I be... And when I see the opportunity, I can step into peace and I can live in acceptance, and so if we've come up with a very tangible example of that, there are so many times where we disagree, and one of the things that I found is a 12-step saying is, "How important is it?" Karen: Now, you could disagree and think, "He's a bad parent because my kids are eating Fruit Loops for dinner. Or my daughter who has the best outfits in the world at eight years old, is going to school looking like she's a homeless person and her hair isn't brushed." So there's a lot of those kinds of things where people can lose their peace and fall into conflict instead of saying how important is it, and where's the opportunity... So the opportunity I had this with my daughter once she was quite the dresser and still is, the opportunity was in teaching her at a very young age to start planning her outfit. And so you're coming to Mommy's house, why don't you... What, let's get on the phone, what outfit do you wanna bring, do you have the shoes? Do you have those pretty berets? Do you have... What else do you need? Karen: And so she's learning something and so it's not about dad. I think one of the key things to co-parenting with peace is when there's a struggle, the fault falls to the side. Whose fault it is, especially if you think it's dad's fault and what comes up front is where's the opportunity in this? And so if it's teaching my children to take more agency over their life, you might think, "She is eight-year-old, she shouldn't have to take agency." Well, let me tell you, she could take agency at eight years old to a certain degree and that's gonna serve her well for the rest of her life. And for me, in these high conflict situations, I often say, rather than calling dad to tell him why he's wrong and bad, and what he should have done differently, how about starting to talk to our young children? Karen: My kids were school age. And what happened and how did you feel about it? And what did you say? I didn't say anything. Why didn't you say anything? I was afraid. What were you afraid of? Okay. If you could do it over again, what would you wanna say, what would you need to say? And all of a sudden, this crisis is now a teaching opportunity, we're teaching them to think, we're teaching them to understand their own emotions and reactions, we're teaching them ways that they can navigate a personality that they're gonna be navigating for the rest of their life. And we've never said a bad word about daddy, and yet we're parenting brilliantly and we're co-parenting well in that situation as well. Mikki: Yeah, I love that whole description, and so just to bring it back to my audience and some of the things we talk about, but it's really taking the shaming and the blaming out, taking that component out and finding how we can empower ourselves and our children within the given context, within the situation. Karen: Exactly. Mikki: Yeah. And I always like the forgiveness word, I know people don't love it, and I think the way that we talk about it here on this show is, that I talk about with my clients is that really, forgiveness is just choosing not to carry someone else's baggage any longer. Is it weighing you down? You can choose to set it down, and sometimes we make that choice every day, over and over. It's not a one and done like you just described, but forgiveness really is about you and not about the other person, and so do you wanna continue to carry that weight, and if not, how can we set that down? Because I know forgiveness is that loaded, loaded term. Karen: Yes, it's definitely a hard one. And I think that you're probably kind of describing this a little bit, but a baby step toward forgiveness is that detachment, detaching from all of the emotion around what the other person is doing, detaching from this... We could get into a black and white right and wrong, and it's... Mikki: Absolutely. Karen: It's not your way. And yet being able to detect from all of the emotion around it is a step toward that forgiv... Mikki: Absolutely. Karen: And the reason my company is called Journey Beyond Divorce is, these things are a journey... Mikki: 100%. Karen: Forgiveness is a journey, acceptance is a journey, patience and presence, these are all journeys. They all happen one baby step at a time. Mikki: Absolutely. You might be a rockstar on Monday and then by Tuesday, re-journey. Karen: Let's start over. That's right. Mikki: We all do that. So I could keep you all day talking, but I don't wanna monopolize all your afternoon, but one question that I always ask is, this is Co-Parenting with Confidence, and so how do you define and cultivate confidence? Karen: I would say, who are you? Like knowing who you are and knowing what your why is, and especially around co-parenting and so, especially for those who may have felt like they lost themselves as I did, finding my who was really big, who is Karen McMahon, what did she stand for and why? Why am I making the choices that I'm making? And that when I got really clear, it was like my North Star, and so when you determine, "Who am I? How do I wanna show up? What's my why? What's my why behind everything I do with my kids and everything I do in my parenting," then you've created some value structure, and when you're certain of your values, there is a rock-solid confidence that comes and then no matter what the situation or the parenting decision, 'cause God knows they just keep coming as the kids get older, whatever it is, you can stand very solidly and confidently in your choices and your behavior. Mikki: Oh, I love that. So beautifully said, thank you so much. Thank you for coming today and for sharing with us and for anyone who would love to learn more about what you do and glean more information, where can they find you? Karen: Yeah. The company is Journey Beyond Divorce, all of our platforms, our podcast, our website, but the thing I would like to offer the most is we offer a free gift of a Rapid Relief Call, I have a team of five coaches and myself, and if anything, you've listened to resonates, you get a one-hour free coaching session, no strings attached, you go to rapidreliefcall.com and sign up for your perfect time. And that's our gift. And that's a great way for people to reach out to us. Mikki: Oh, I love that. That is so generous of you. I'll make sure that's in the show notes along with all the other ways that you can get to know Karen, and thank you so much for coming. I really do appreciate your time, your wisdom and sharing with us today. Karen: And thank you. Thank you for what you do. I don't think there's enough of us out there, and the co-parenting piece is just absolutely vital, so... Mikki: It is. Karen: Kudos to you. Mikki: Thank you, it's been a pleasure. Mikki: I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. I know that I had so many takeaways. I'd love to hear what came up for you. If you're over on Instagram, please send me a DM, I love hearing from you, and feel free to tag Karen, she would love to be in conversation with you too, @journeybeyonddivorce. I have one more favor to ask of you, if you're enjoying this podcast and you wanna find out about any upcoming workshops that I have coming up or new ways to work with me, please just go to www.mikkigardner.com and sign up for the 3 Myths of Co-Parenting, and then you'll be on my newsletter, so you're sure not to miss any of the fun. Everything is in the show notes, so you can just click there. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I'll see you next week, and in the meantime, take really good care of you, friend. [music] Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit coparentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.