Ep #32: Interview with Amanda Louder

Mikki Gardner: I'm Mikki Gardner, and this is The Co-Parenting with Confidence podcast, episode number 32; An Interview with Amanda Louder. [music] Mikki Gardner: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name is Mikki Gardner, I'm a Certified Life and Conscious Parenting Coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother, and I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well get ready and let's dive into today's episode. [music] Mikki Gardner: Welcome friend. Thank you for joining me today. I know there are so many great podcasts that you have available to listen to, and I'm so grateful that you're here with me today. You know, in the month of May, I've really just wanted to extend the Mother's Day celebration by offering you amazing conversations with powerful, beautiful, kind, empowered women who have all walked the journey of divorce, and today is no exception, we have Amanda Louder here on the podcast. For those of you who don't know her, Amanda Louder is a Certified Life Coach who helps women from conservative Christian backgrounds love their sex life. She helps women embrace their sexuality to help them strengthen their relationship with themselves, their spouses and God. In addition to being a coach, Amanda is also a wife to Kevin and a mom and a step-mom to five kids ranging from 13-22. But today, Amanda is coming on to talk to us about her journey of divorce and learning to co-parent, and it is such a beautiful conversation that I cannot wait for you to hear. And so without any further ado, let's take a listen. Mikki Gardner: Hi, and welcome back to The Co-Parenting With Confidence podcast. I am beyond excited today because we have an amazing woman with us, Amanda Louder. Hi, Amanda. Amanda Louder: Hi, Mikki, how are you today? Mikki Gardner: I'm good, I'm so excited that you're here with us. In the month of May, I really wanted to highlight strong women who have gone through divorce, who are thriving afterwards, because I don't know about you, but so often when we're in the middle of divorce, when we're in the middle of going through everything, it seems hopeless and we don't even know which way to go. And so I find that by offering examples and wisdom from women who have actually been in the trenches and walk this journey, that it's so helpful to people, and so I really appreciate you coming on today and speaking with us. Amanda Louder: Well, I am so happy to be here and to speak to this topic 'cause it's something near and dear to my heart and something I know so many women need. Mikki Gardner: Yeah. Oh, thank you. So I guess with that, I would love for you to just sort of share a little bit about yourself, what you're comfortable with, how you got here, and we can go from there. Amanda Louder: Yeah. So I grew up in just north of Salt Lake City in a home where my parents are still married after 40-something years, and really grew up with a pretty happy childhood. I married my first husband right after my freshman year of college, so I was barely 19, like nine days when we got married, so we were both really, really young, finished college, moved to Texas, had a few kids, but really things... Things started to go downhill pretty early in our marriage. I remember after... Especially after our first baby was born, which is about eight... We'd been married about 18 months. I was like, "What the heck is going on here?" And things got even worse after our second baby was born to the point that we'd been married about five years and I started seriously considering divorce, and I am very religious, and my relationship with God is really important to me, and so I was praying about divorcing him for many, many years, and for many years it was... My answer wasn't, no. I felt like my answer was, now is not the time, and so... And basically the... What was going in my head is, "Now is not the time and you have more work to do." And I was like, "Okay, well, what's my work?" Because, let me get this done as fast as possible so I can get out of here. Mikki Gardner: Sure. Yeah. Amanda Louder: That actually went on for eight years. Mikki Gardner: Wow. Amanda Louder: And so we were... We'd been married about 13 years when I finally felt like my answer changed and decided to go through the divorce process, so it was a long time coming, a long time. And I've spoken to him, he's okay with me sharing things, but he was very verbally and emotionally abusive in that marriage, our marriage revolved almost 100% around my weight, my size, how much I ate, how much I exercised, and he was very, very controlling of that. Now, what I didn't understand at the time is the trauma that he had had from a broken home, and... That he had gone through that was causing all of him to, you know, these irrational fears that he had, that he felt like he needed to control everything so that I wouldn't leave him, which is exactly what happened. So it was really bad, but by the time we actually divorced, I had done a lot of work on myself, and I had been through years of therapy and had gotten to a place where I felt really strong in myself, I wasn't angry anymore, I was very at peace with everything that was going on. And so when we decided... When I decided to divorce him and told him, of course, he was really upset, but he also understood at that point because he had started to see in himself the problems that were happening that he was causing. Amanda Louder: And so we ended up divorcing but when we did that, we also said, This is... Our stuff is in the past, and that it is time to just put that in the past and move forward to a place where we can both be good parents for our kids, and that has really been the crux that both of us were willing to do that propelled the good, even though I would will say, great co-parenting relationship that we have today. Just a little bit beyond that. So we have three kids. They're now 22, 20 and 14. We've been divorced for about 10 1/2 years at this point. I've been remarried for almost 10. Mikki Gardner: Oh wow. Amanda Louder: I met my now husband just six weeks after my divorce was final. Mikki Gardner: Wow. Amanda Louder: And we got married fairly quickly and are blissfully happy, and then I got... I'm now the step-mom of two daughters as well. Mikki Gardner: Aww. That's wonderful. Amanda Louder: Yeah. Mikki Gardner: Well, I love that you... And you say that like this happened, this happened, this happened, right, as if it was just so easy. But... Amanda Louder: Oh no, it was not. [laughter] Mikki Gardner: Right, but what I wanna highlight is what I'm hearing listening to this, is eight years of work. Amanda Louder: Yeah. Mikki Gardner: On you. Amanda Louder: Yeah. Mikki Gardner: Right, before making a decision for action 'cause I feel like so much of we just wanna change, we just wanna get divorced, we would just wanna do something so things are different so that it could be better, but I'd love for you, if you can, to sort of help, hindsight to 2020, so it's always... We can look back and see what we did and we don't always know, but for someone who's in that same place maybe, who's really sort of struggling with... My audience is really mostly divorced, but that doesn't mean that we're not past what's going on. Amanda Louder: For sure. Mikki Gardner: Sometimes the divorce was brought on, not by choice, and... So I'm always curious about what did that work look like for you, because it sounds like you did so much on your own before you even changed things. Amanda Louder: Yeah, so with the abuse that happened... When we got married, I was a really strong, confident person and the years of abuse wore me down. My sister says she watched this strong, amazing woman become this wilted flower over time, and so it really took a lot of work to come back to myself and be confident in myself again and be okay with me when I had someone in my face almost on the daily telling me that there was something wrong with me. So that was... The work that I did was really on just looking inside and saying, "Do I like myself, what... How do I actually feel about myself? Am I going to let someone on the outside tell me who I am, or do I get to decide who I am?" So my mantra for years and years and years was, "I can't change him, I can only change how I react." And I would tell myself that 100 times a day for years. And so I was like, it was a matter of me figuring out, Hey, how do I want to respond to what's happening here, rather than, you know... I said it was react in the mantra, but really it was responding. Mikki Gardner: Right. Amanda Louder: How do I want to respond to what is happening outside of me because of who I am and who I want to be, and that was really the work that I did on myself and in therapy, so that I could make those decisions from a place of confidence rather than from a place of pain and hurt. Mikki Gardner: Yeah, and I love that you made that distinction, I know I've talked about it before here and certainly with clients, but it's, Do we wanna be reacting to life? It's almost like living in a pinball machine where you're just bouncing from thing to thing versus a responsive life. Right. Where we're stepping back, where we're separate, where we're watching and really making those choices, so I love that you highlighted that. Amanda Louder: Yes. Mikki Gardner: It's so important. Amanda Louder: And it's so funny 'cause... So I'm a coach too. And it's funny to look back and be like, Okay, I was doing this work. It took me a long time 'cause I didn't have... I mean, I had a therapist, but it's the work that we do with clients in coaching. Mikki Gardner: Right. Yes. Amanda Louder: And I was like having to figure it out all on my own, which is so much harder. Mikki Gardner: So much harder, yes. Amanda Louder: But it really is. It's like figuring out myself and who do I want to be, how do I wanna think, how do I want to feel, how do I want to act in response to something that's outside of myself. Mikki Gardner: Yeah, so I'm curious, 'cause you just said, you know you had to do it on your own. How did... And I think we all, right... Everybody starts from that, but for you, what was sort of the... What gave you the ability to do that? Amanda Louder: I was just tired, tired, I was so tired and all of the praying was like, "Okay, well, you've got work to do." I'm like, "Okay, well, this is not like, Yep, he needs to make some changes so that you can feel better. It was like, No, you've got work to do." So this is on you to make sure that you're responsible for yourself, and so I just tried everything I could, like everything I could possibly think of, and I was reading books, we would go to communication seminars, and I'm going to therapy, individual therapy and couples therapy. And this was not an easy process. I went through years of severe mental health issues, I had postpartum depression, really bad after my last baby where I was barely getting out of bed. In 2010, I nearly tried to take my life. Mikki Gardner: Oh my gosh. Amanda Louder: This was not... It was not an easy process through this, so I don't wanna just gloss over it like, "Oh yeah, I just did this and it was all fine." It was so hard and gut-wrenching, and after so many years, I was like, "Am I ever gonna get out of this? Am I ever going to do enough that my answer from God will change?" Because I felt so strongly that if I would listen to God, then I would be on the right path, as hard as that was, and I wasn't willing to go against what I felt God was telling me to do. And so I knew, I just... This was the work that I had to do to become who I was supposed to be. And it was so hard that at one point, I almost gave up. Mikki Gardner: Oh my gosh. And why didn't you? Amanda Louder: My kids. Mikki Gardner: Your kids. Amanda Louder: I didn't wanna leave my kids with him. Mikki Gardner: Yeah. Amanda Louder: That was really the only reason why I did not go through with it, is because I did not want to leave my kids with him. Mikki Gardner: Yeah, Amanda, thank you for sharing your vulnerability here and because I think being willing to express that honest answer, right, so many people are struggling and it doesn't seem... And I love that you had your faith to lean on and it's so important to have something, and sometimes just showing up for our kids... Amanda Louder: Yep. Mikki Gardner: Will keep us... Amanda Louder: Is what's gonna pull us through. Yes. Mikki Gardner: Absolutely, right. So you touched on it, but relationship with self, and you're a coach, and I'd love for you to tell my listeners 'cause your topic is a little different than my topic, which I love, but I'm curious about relationship with self and what that looks like in your life. Amanda Louder: Yeah. So I'm a sex coach for Christian women. Mikki Gardner: Yes. Amanda Louder: Which is... It almost feels like an oxymoron sometimes, but really... And this was actually a large part of my story, was that through this process, our sex life was awful, and it's not that he didn't try 'cause he did, but I hated sex. Amanda Louder: I went through years of... I didn't have an orgasm for like 12 years. Mikki Gardner: Oh wow. Amanda Louder: And so... And I would just do it out of duty, like just do it to get him off my back for a little while, so that I could move on with my life or whatever. And so as part of this process, I actually... There was a lot of sexual development for me as well, I thought, "Well, maybe if the sex gets better, our marriage will get better." And so I had to overcome a lot of the sexual shame that I had. Just in conservative Christian religions, there tends to be a lot of teachings about very fear-based about sex, and so I had a lot of sexual shame and I had to work through that, so I started like, "Okay, well, maybe if this improves then our marriage will get better." And the sex got better, the marriage was still rough, but the sex got better. And so that was a lot of years as part of this... Of me being willing to love myself, all of me, and accept myself and know that I deserve goodness and pleasure and fun, and I didn't deserve abuse and negativity and stuff. So that was a large part of this process was re-discovering or maybe discovering for the first time, like my inherent sexuality, and so now... And so when I was getting married to my second husband, he was like, "Do you like sex?" And I was like, "Yes, yes, I do." Check, I'm in. Amanda Louder: And so we've had a great sexual relationship, and now that's what I help women do, is discover this part of themselves, to help themselves feel whole, and that relationship with self is so, so important that... Like this is who I am, and I get to show up as all of me, and when I suppress parts of myself then I'm not being true to who I am and who I was, in my belief, created to be. And so I think that relationship with self is so important, so I started really doing that work during this process, and the sex part was a huge part of that. Mikki Gardner: Wow. Well, and hopefully you'll come back and have a whole... We can have a whole other conversation about that, but I think it's important because divorce is one of those times that I think it makes you... Whatever the situation was, whether it was an abuse, whether there was infidelity, there's trauma involved on some level, and so many women especially and men, but it really makes you question yourself. Amanda Louder: Yeah, yeah. Mikki Gardner: Right. And especially with things like infidelity, what didn't I see? How could I have let this happen? There's so much self-blame and pressure that we take on, and so that relationship with self, and like you just so beautifully said, like all the parts of you and being deserving of goodness and of pleasure and of joy, and of lightness and of ease. Right? Amanda Louder: Yes. Mikki Gardner: It feels like it's not even an option sometimes. Amanda Louder: Right. It doesn't, it doesn't. In those darkest moments, it seems so far away, but when you can start to really look inside and see who am I, what do I want for myself? And know that your value does not come from what you do or you don't do, but it's inherent to who you are, is very, very powerful to pull yourself out of those dark times. Mikki Gardner: I love that, and it just popped in my head, so I usually say what pops in my head if it's appropriate, but I heard a saying, I think Cathy Heller said it, but her rabbi told her that, you know, "You are a master piece because you are a piece of the master." Right? Amanda Louder: I love that. Mikki Gardner: And when you said it's inherently who you are, we are inherently good, loving, deserving, worthy, because we're part of... We're a part of God, universe, whatever you wanna call it. Amanda Louder: Right. Mikki Gardner: Polka-dot unicorn in the sky. I don't really care. Everyone's different in that but... Amanda Louder: But you have to have something. We all come from somewhere. And we all have light and dark within us because we're human, that's just part of the human experience. Right. But when you can really tap into that light and like, This is who I am, and this is what I deserve as part of this life, and work for that, like, Yes, this is what I want for myself. Mikki Gardner: Yeah. So that is that relationship with self for you? Like really sort of stepping into and owning that part of you. Yeah. Amanda Louder: Absolutely. Mikki Gardner: So if you... Go ahead. Amanda Louder: Well, and I think also owning the dark and knowing that it doesn't make you less worthy. Mikki Gardner: Oh, thank you for saying that. Yeah, I think so many... That just really hit me powerfully because so many of us think because of what we've done, mistakes, maybe we've made things, it can't be better, but there's always... It's owning both sides of that, so yes. Amanda Louder: So a lot of what I do stems from the tantric traditions, and tantra is all about embracing all of it, and when you can embrace the dark, that's in you, more light shines through. When that is not something that you need to hide and put away, but approach with compassion and kindness and understanding and love, that's when things get so much better. Mikki Gardner: Yeah, we're gonna have to have many conversations. I love that you're a sex coach for conservative Christian women in a tantric tradition, right? That comes from the other side of the world, and I love that you can hold all of that, all the parts, and really take all of it and make it something beautiful. So what would be one or two ways that someone could start to develop a relationship with self, maybe they're feeling very lost in their identity or struggling with co-parenting and I do wanna talk about co-parenting, but what would be one or two ways that you encourage people to strengthen relationship with self or even start having one? Amanda Louder: Yeah, so I think it's really important to discover what you love about yourself, so I have my clients write a list of 100 things that they love about themselves. Now, most people can get 20,30 fairly easily. And after that, it gets really hard, and then they have to really push themselves to find all the little things, and it doesn't have to be love even, it could be like love appreciate about themselves. I also think it's important for them to understand what they desire and not just sexually, although that's part of it, but understand what they desire for themselves in general. Do you desire goodness? Do you desire travel? Do you desire good relationships, what do you desire? And really normalizing all of it, like it's okay for me to want this, it's good for me to want this, but then the opposite side of... What don't I like about myself? Why? Is because of what other people have told me? Am I adopting the belief systems from other people, or is this something that I truly don't like and I want to change? Mikki Gardner: Those are great ways to start really pushing yourself to find 100 things, I love that, and I challenge everybody listening to this, to maybe try this exercise and try to find those hundred things that you love, but then the flip side, right? What is it that you don't like? And maybe getting curious around that. Not making it mean anything huge but just exploring it a little bit. Amanda Louder: Yeah, so for years, I have been told by many people, family, other people, that I'm just too much, I'm too loud, too bold to whatever. And so I lived for years trying to live smaller and suppress parts of myself so that I wasn't too much and I would be more accepted, and as I've done this work, I've realized I actually really like that about myself. And the people who don't like that, it's because of something inside of them, their own insecurities that they're trying to push on to me, because it's a reflection of what they don't like. And I choose... Gosh, in my knees, I have to be quite bold, I have to be very direct. I have to be too everything to get the word out there. And I love it, I love it so much. And so this part of myself that I have tried to make smaller and suppress, I'm now embracing is like this was given to me from, I believe God for a purpose. 'Cause I truly believe my purpose is helping women have a better sexual relationship with themselves and their spouse. And if I have to be bold and loud to do that, that's exactly why God gave it to me, and I'm not turning down that dial anymore, so really stepping into all of these parts, I'm like looking at, Do I really believe that about myself or my adopting things that other people have told me? And what do I really want to believe? Mikki Gardner: Yeah, and that just kinda took me back to the beginning of the conversation when you were talking about your experience in your first marriage and sort of being controlled with an image and weight and everything else, that sort of his insecurities were impacting the relationship, and so I'm really curious, always, how were you able to... 'Cause you said you guys have a great co-parenting relationship now. Amanda Louder: Yeah. Mikki Gardner: So how is it that you guys were able to sort of grow alongside of each other while doing all of this healing? Amanda Louder: Yeah, like I said, we made that decision right when we got divorced to just put like, We're done, that's over with, and we need to focus on being good parents for the kids, we made that decision together, and I think for the most part, we have really done that my ex-husband has done so much work on himself as well, so he wasn't in a place where he could do that when we were married, and even with... Given lots of opportunities to do that. But since the divorce and the things that have happened afterwards, he has spent years working on himself that... He's a great man, and he has overcome so many of the things that... The challenges that affected us in the divorce. I personally think he would make someone else a great husband at this point, just not me. I'm happily married to Kevin, but I think that both of us doing that work on ourselves has helped us see the good parts of each other, and instead of just focusing on the bad, focusing on the good parts of each other. So we've both done... We both worked on ourselves, we've both in the healing and we've both been committed to providing the best experience for our kids, given that they have divorced parents. Mikki Gardner: I love that 'cause I was just thinking... So how does that help you show up for your kids, but it's really... You're creating a life for them. That's the best it can be because you are both able to be there. Amanda Louder: Yeah, having divorced parents is hard on kids. Mikki Gardner: It is. Amanda Louder: And so why are we going to make that even harder for them by bickering and fighting and not... And passing on that hurt to them that we experienced, we did not want that for them. Mikki Gardner: And I love that you guys were able to come together to do that, and many, many of my clients, they don't have that opportunity. The other person may or may not be willing to look at themselves and do the work, the one thing I wanna say, because I think it's... And I know it's always so quick to say, Well, I can't have that. But I think what at least I'm hearing that Amanda is illustrating through the beautiful way that she's telling her story is that she showed up, right, and you showing up and healing then that's when you become the influencer, we can't change other people, but we do influence people. We don't know... It's not always Immediate. We don't always know when, but when we show up in our best selves, when we show up loving ourselves, we inevitably influence the world in a more positive way and our children in a more positive way, and so even if your ex isn't willing to do this, I'm just sort of doing a PSA, you're still able to do this, provide love and strength and safety for your children so that they can learn how to create it for themselves, because I think ultimately that's our job as parents is to guide and shepherd them, right, not fix, but it'll help them. Mikki Gardner: And so we have to be in a safe stable place to do that, and so I love Amanda, your story of empowerment that really you took on. Right. And yes, he's done his work too, and you guys have a beautiful relationship, but really you were a driving force to do your own work, heal and move forward. So I just wanted to sort of point that out. Amanda Louder: Absolutely, and I know it's not always that I have where both sides are willing to work, but I would say there's been times where things have been harder than other times, but me deciding that I wanna show up with love and compassion and kindness and grace and understanding, for him, even he wasn't acting like his best self really helped the whole situation, and we agreed, we're not gonna talk bad about each other in front of our kids, we've worked to come together for big events for our kids graduation, baptisms, all of that kind of stuff, where when he has my kids on Christmas, my mom invites him along with the kids to a ranch and we spend Christmas together because they are our kids, but there's been times where things have been... He's made decisions that I did not agree with and I did not like, and I knew that was not gonna be great for my kids, and I would talk to him about that, like not telling him like, You need to do this, but, These are the concerns that I have because I care about our kids, but I also care about you, and I want him to be in a good, healthy, stable, loving place because that's also going to be the best thing for our kids. Mikki Gardner: Yes, yes. I remember my parents sat me down after... 'cause my parents have been married 53 years now. It's a solid place. And so in my family, it was very foreign, this idea of divorce, it was just like, What are you doing it and so... But I remember they sat down and they said, What can we do? What do you want us to do? And I remember very specifically saying, I want you to love and support my son's father. I want you to put everything aside, and I want you to love and support him because if he is successful, then my son is successful. It will make it a lot easier on my son if his dad is healthy and doing well and supported. And so if there's anything that we can do to support that, we do that. And listen, it was not always easy like when they would really be supporting him, I'm like, What? What are you doing? Right, but I had to really check myself and realize, this is what I asked for, like you said, I want you to be there and to show up even when it's hard. Amanda Louder: And I think it's also really helpful if you can have some sort of... I won't say neutral party, but somebody that can really look at things with a bigger perspective, so for me, that was my parents, even though they were very supportive of me and what I was doing, they were like, No, he is your children's father, so we want to support everybody. So they told me from the beginning, we are focused on what is best for the kids, and if we don't feel like what is happening is best for the kids, then we will let you or him or both of you know, and that was a really helpful thing especially in the beginning when we were starting to just navigate all of these challenges and differences, that sometimes he would do something and oh, I would be so upset, I would be so angry. And my parents were like, Okay, hold up. I know you're angry, but what is actually going to be the best thing for the kids, and it would just pull me back and help me have that different perspective and get out of myself and what I was feeling and really focused on what was important, and if that could be a parent, great. Or some sort of neutral party that can just help you keep that perspective, I think is really, really helpful, and my ex's parents were divorced as well, and had a great working relationship as well. Mikki Gardner: Okay. Amanda Louder: Which was so interesting. Like when we got married, his dad, his step-mom, his mom and his stepdad all set next to each other at the luncheon and laughed at... Had conversation, and so I really... Even from his side, it really set that tone that even though... We could be divorced and still be okay. Mikki Gardner: Yeah, yeah. I constantly preach it, we're not... Divorces does not mean a broken home. Amanda Louder: No. Mikki Gardner: It is a family. It might be in two houses, but you are still a family and nothing is broken, and so it's really how do we keep that cohesion, how do we build on that, how do we increase and grow that in every way, and I love these examples that you've been giving. So I don't wanna keep you forever. Although I would really love to, I wanna be respectful of your time. So I do ask every guest here because my podcast is called Co-parenting With Confidence, so how do you define confidence? Amanda Louder: So for me, it's really about self-trust and knowing that I will be okay no matter what the situation is, because I will always take care of me, I will always be good to myself, I will always be kind to myself, loving myself, even when I'm not showing up as my best self. Mikki Gardner: I love that, I love that. Well, Amanda, thank you so much, I'm gonna have in the show notes, like everything on every way that people could possibly get to find you in PS to listeners too. She has some great interviews with... She and her ex-husband, which you should definitely listen to. I love them. But how can people find you? How can they work with you? How can they get more of your goodness? Amanda Louder: Yeah, so you can go to my website, amandalouder.com. I have a podcast called The Sex For Saints. I literally talk about everything when it comes to sex, it's just through the lens of conservative culture, so whether you're a member of my faith or not, if you just tend to be more conservative in nature, it's probably a good fit for you, you can follow me on social media at Amanda Louder Coaching. I have a membership, that's how I work with clients, where they can come in and partake of all of the goodness that's there, get coaching on any subject, not just sex, but really, that's what we're focused on is building a better relationship with yourself and your spouse, and your sexuality. Mikki Gardner: I love that. Awesome, well maybe to be continued, 'cause I would love to have another conversation around that, but thank you so much, Amanda, I am so grateful that you came and shared this and that I was able to offer my audience a beautiful example of motherhood and co-parenting and just being an extraordinary human. So thank you. Amanda Louder: Thanks so much for having me, Mikki. Mikki Gardner: Alright, I'll talk to you soon. Amanda Louder: Okay. Mikki Gardner: Oh man, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did, I got so much out of it and had so many takeaways. I would love to hear from you and what your takeaways were. I spend time over on Instagram and I would love it if you would DM me and just let me know what came up for you, and also please share this invitation, and if you know of anyone who could really use the encouragement and the love from this conversation, I would be so grateful if you would share it with them, feel free to share it on Instagram and tag Amanda and I, we would love to get into a conversation with you. I mean, this really is the point, right, that we all support one another and share the love in the light with the world. And if this podcast is resonated with you and you want more of it, then please subscribe to my newsletter so that you can be in the know about free upcoming workshops that I have, new podcasts and opportunities to work with me, just go to www.mikkigardner.com and sign up for the three myths of co-parenting, and you'll be on my newsletter, so you don't miss any of the fun. Thank you so much for spending your time with me. I'll see you next week, and in the meantime, take really good care of you. Mikki Gardner: Thanks, listening to Co-parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com, I'll see you next week.