Ep #145: Doing Divorce Differently with Max Emmer

Mikki Gardner: Welcome back to the podcast. Today, I have the first lawyer that we have had on the podcast, and I am really excited to welcome Max Emmer. He is a local attorney here in Detroit that I know personally, and we've had beautiful conversations around really doing divorce differently, and that's why I wanted to have the conversation here, because there is often so much fear, so much unknown, and all of the questions that are looming when we're contemplating or starting the divorce process, or maybe in the divorce process and really unhappy with how it's going, and you know from being here on the podcast and listening that what I wanna do is help you create the most well-balanced well-being for yourself, your children and your spouse, even if that means after divorce, living in two homes. And the way that we do that is we start to shift their perspective, start to figure out what our options are, start to do things differently in a way that actually are in support of our well-being, and that's what I think is so amazing about Max. He is fun, he's funny, he keeps it real, he does not sugar-coat it, you will hear that in the interview today, and so I'm really excited for you to meet him.

Mikki Gardner: He is a trained and skilled lawyer in litigation law certainly, but also collaborative divorce, which we're gonna talk about, which often works with clients to be the most peaceful and most cost-effective way to achieve a new family dynamic that works. One of Max's core principles is that he really does keep the client centered first, always caring about them, prioritizing the well-being and health of their children and his client and the other co-parents. And that is the conversation that we're gonna have today. If you need support in any way, I hope that you reach out to Max for him to maybe be a trusted source to get a second opinion or a first opinion on something, to reach out to me if you need support, and if it's not Max or I, here's what I hope, please reach out and get support. There are so many amazing professionals in the legal world, in the financial world, in mental health, that like Max and I are really committed to your well-being, to supporting you in the way that you need, so that you can create the next chapter of your life that actually benefits you, that feels good to you.

Mikki Gardner: And is going to be a solution that works. So after this, I really hope that you reach out. If you need support, if you want accountability, if you want someone to just help talk you through and get some perspective, the links are in the show notes on how to get a hold of me, how to go a hold of Max, and if it's not one of us, just promise me you'll reach out and get some support that you need. Without further ado, let's take a listen.

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Mikki Gardner: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother, and I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready and let's dive into today's episode.

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Mikki Gardner: Max, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited you're here today.

Max Emmer: Hi Mikki, thanks so much for having me happy to be here, and I always love talking with like-minded professionals about our little part of the legal and emotional world.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah, yeah. So I can say that you're the first lawyer we've had on this podcast.

Max Emmer: Well, I'm honored. I will take my place in the hall of fame.

Mikki Gardner: Yes, yes. So I really wanted to have you on because I wanted to have, we talked about this, but an honest conversation, almost like a behind the scenes as a divorce lawyer, what is it that you want people to know and also understanding, 'cause you and I have talked. My whole focus with this podcast is really to open up perspective, open up minds to what else is possible while most importantly, keeping our children centered and their well-being as our main priority. And so I'm super excited for this conversation.

Max Emmer: No, absolutely. I think that's bottom line, and I think echoing your sentiment, I believe the most important thing to talk about, and part of my job that I really have a privilege is educating the public, educating my clients about the fact that there is more than one way to get divorced, as I say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think based on movies, TV, social media, everyone believes it must be a 12 to 18-month traditionally litigated protracted case, and for 99% of people, that does not yield you or your children a benefit, it does not get a better or a different result. All it really does is drain your financial and emotional capital and enrich the lawyers. And I think for me, endorsement I regularly get is I give sound advice, and because oftentimes that advice is counter to my financial interest, because as a lawyer, people fighting and making a mess means more money, but I believe it really is unnecessary and unproductive most of the time, and I prefer working with people who don't wanna make a mess, where we can focus on the best interest of their kids and themselves to help them navigate towards their next chapter.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah, and this is why I love you, so I'm so excited that you're here and that we're gonna have this conversation. Before we sort of dive into that, 'cause I love the education piece, I would love for people to kind of get to know who you are, outside of what you do, just a little, what you're comfortable sharing. Who are you and how did you get here?

Max Emmer: Sure, my name is Max Emmer. I'm born and raised in Metro Detroit. I went to college at Boston University, went to law school at the University of Miami in Florida. Have been a lawyer for 11 years, practice in a lot of areas from securities and banking, a lot in trusts and estates, and I needed the human element in my practice, and that drew me to family law. I have my own boutique firm in Bloomfield Hills, Emmer Law PLC, where I exclusively focus on family law, but really collaborative divorce, amicable matters. I do a lot of prenuptial agreements, I do a lot of mediation. I pride myself on really curating a thoughtful and creative process and framework on a person by person basis. And as I say candidly, if people want to go to war, I'm not their guy. I'm happy to find them their guy or their gal, but one, it's not what I enjoy doing. And two, I believe the vast majority of people nor their children benefit from that. And have been married for six years, so sometimes I find myself odd giving advice to people who've been married for five or six times that. I have a young son and a dog. And I love the Detroit Lions, so do not judge my intellectual capabilities on being a life-long Lions fan. This year no understating though, we had a great year.

Mikki Gardner: We had a great year. Yeah, it's cool to be a Lions fan now.

Max Emmer: It is.

Mikki Gardner: But I applaud your commitment and willingness to.

Max Emmer: Yes. Yes.

Mikki Gardner: It's been not easy, as we all know here in Detroit, so. Well, thank you for sharing that, 'cause I always like people to know who are they talking to. And I think first and foremost, you're a husband, and a dad, and a family man, and I know that for many of us, what we do informs and impacts that part of us, but it's important to see us as whole people experiencing this.

Max Emmer: Absolutely. And one thing I always tell my clients is they're paying me to be a level head when they can't be. And it's easy for me to be rational when it's not my family, my children, my money, and I always say, if I was on the other side of the desk, I'd be the craziest person on Earth. So I do try to make people feel better that it's easy to be the cool customer, one, because that's my professional and ethical obligation, but two, I can be objective, it's impossible to be objective when it's your own life and family.

Mikki Gardner: Absolutely, right? And so I think that's why this is such an important conversation to have because like you said a few minutes ago, there is sort of this, whether it's media or just culture, this idea that there's one way to get divorced.

Max Emmer: Yes.

Mikki Gardner: And that simply is not true. And I'd love for you to help educate us on where you wish that people knew more as they're coming into your office.

Max Emmer: 100%. And one thing I do is I always tell people there are options, and I always tell people they should interview and meet with more than one lawyer. That does not make me nervous or insulted. And I tell people, if you have a lawyer who's not willing to discuss options with you, I don't think you should hire that lawyer. Now look, if there is domestic violence and restraining orders or someone's kidnapping kids, or hiding money, you gotta be in court. I'm a realist and a pragmatist, but the first option is traditional litigation, as we've talked about, where you file, the other person answers, we do discovery, we mediate, and you usually end up at the same place you would anywhere else, but with a lot of more time and emotion invested.

Max Emmer: I practice and do a lot of what's called collaborative divorce, which there's about 30-ish attorneys in the Metro Detroit area, all over the country, where we're certified and we do a private process where each party hires a collaborative lawyer, they both have to be willing, and then we bring on both a certified divorce financial analyst to assist with the financials, and a co-parenting counselor, mental health professional to help with the family and child and parenting issues. And through a series of private meetings, we work through and come to a final agreement and we sign that agreement before we ever file in court, which is private, which saves you from the deadlines and extra hearings in court and lets you be in a creative environment to come up with thoughtful and customized solutions. If you're interested in that approach but don't believe you need the whole team, I do a few other things.

Max Emmer: I do a lot of what I call one lawyer divorce. I can't ethically represent two parties, but let's say two people agree on everything. One can hire me, I can work with them and prepare documents based on their agreement. I always advise the other party, they have the absolute right to review with their own counsel. I also do what I call pre-suit negotiation, which is kind of like a collaborative light where if they happen to agree on custody, parenting time or their marital state isn't that complicated, we will negotiate everything and all of these have a sign in your judgment and divorce before we ever file.

Max Emmer: And one, in the state of Michigan, a major benefit is the waiting period for divorce in Michigan is six months. If we do a joint petition and file one of these ways, we're able to knock it down to 60 days. So we're able to do everything privately confidentially, and then just file and have one 10-minute Zoom hearing to finalize your divorce. So any perspective client or professional I talk with and I advise you, ask your attorney what options are out there and ask them about collaborative, ask them about these other approaches. In your case, might not be a fit, but every client absolutely has a right to hear about the different options and circumstances.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah, yeah.

Max Emmer: I apologize if that was long-winded.

Mikki Gardner: No, that was perfect.

Max Emmer: Okay. Great.

Mikki Gardner: That was perfect. I think another thing that's really important, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but with collaborative, is it not where both parties have to, as you said, they have their own attorneys, they have their own teams, but they're also signing an agreement saying that they will not go to court or litigate?

Max Emmer: Great point, yes. In a collaborative process case, we sign a collaborative participation agreement, and that states that the parties will not, parties are allowed to exit the collaborative process if they do not believe it's working. However, there is what we kind of call a 30-day cooling-off period, which means absent, extraordinary or exigent circumstance, serious danger to the child or something, the party cannot go initiate a divorce action in court for 30 days after exiting and concluding the collaborative process. The enforceability of that is questionable, but the spirit and intent is to give it a really good college try. And I regularly handle collaborative cases. I've only had one terminate and that was actually at the recommendation of us as professionals. We did not believe it was ethically or financially efficient for us to continue the case for them, and we believed it was in their best interests and their kids' to just get into court, which we don't like, but I think we did them a service versus wasting their time and money for another six or eight months and then starting all over.

Mikki Gardner: Exactly. And I think. Oh, go ahead.

Max Emmer: Both parties have to have a buy-in that they wanna participate in the process, and if they both have that buy-in it's a wonderful process and it's a very child-centric process, and I do not mean to impune the court in front of the court, they absolutely have their appropriate place and have wonderful people working it. I always just say, good or bad, don't you wanna be the driver of future decisions for your children?

Mikki Gardner: Yeah.

Max Emmer: And even if you don't love your co-parent anymore or you don't fully believe them or trust them, you two are most likely the better decision makers for your kids than a stranger in a black robe on any given Thursday.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah, and I think that's such an important point. And when you and I were talking and you made that it had never been so clear to me that you said, it's like they can have bad days just like everybody else, but when we are.

Max Emmer: 100%.

Mikki Gardner: Giving up our control and advocating everything to this just random person sitting on a bench in a black robe, is that where we wanna come from? And so that's why I wanted to have this conversation so that people can feel empowered and start to understand what are my options, how can I start to really look at this in a way that I can keep my children centered and really figure out how we are going to still be a family at the end of this, in two houses.

Max Emmer: Absolutely. And empowerment's the right word. I always say, I don't encourage or discourage divorce, I give people the information and resources to make the best decision for themselves and their family, and I believe most healthy adults are the appropriate decision-maker. And that does not mean that the court renegades aren't qualified, it just means if you have children, you birthed them, you raised them, you've lived with them, shouldn't you be the ultimate arbiter and not someone who doesn't know you or your family? It happens in certain circumstances where it merits that.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. So you brought up a point a couple of times here that's sort of the thread that I think we have to talk about, which is the emotionality and the lack of perspective that we innately have when there's heightened emotionality. And so what do you see from your side of the table and how can we best support people? And what do you want them to know?

Max Emmer: So, that's a great question. I could probably do a whole podcast with you, but the first thing I would say is I often jest that I am just as much unlicensed therapist as I am attorney. Frankly, most of my job, I am advisor and counselor versus just strict lawyer, because I think people are coming to me in a dark hour wanting my, of course professional judgment, but they also want my day-to-day help and assistance. I have a new case right now where my client can readily admit he is not in his normal frame of mind, not that he is mentally ill, but he is relying on me, because he's just at such an elevated state. So I believe I bring a level of empathy and communicative-ness to my practice that many others don't. I don't handle 68 cases, I don't have staff, I am always the one communicating with my client, and the first thing I do to try and help alleviate the anxiety and anguish and uncertainty which this process has, is I do believe in over-communicating and that's not for billing sake, but I never want a client thinking they're playing catch up with me and I'd rather them complain, "Max reaches out to me too much than too little."

Max Emmer: So even if it's just, Hey, I received this, I'm working on it, I'll talk to you X. Or I sent this to opposing counsel, I'll report back. I always want my clients to know what is going on so they never are in a position where they're like, I'm just languishing away. The other thing is, one thing I really stress, especially child-related issues is, it is so stressful and anxiety-inducing if you file for divorce, you going through this process and say you have a four-year-old or an 11-year-old even. I have to make decisions in the next six months about the next 14 years of my child's life. I can't imagine how overwhelming that is. I'm fortunate I haven't been in that personal position, but what I remind people and emphasize periodically through a matter is everything with respect to your minor children is always modifiable, and this is going to be an evolving time process. The first thing I mean in our state and in most all others, issues of custody, parenting time and child support are always modifiable. If you have a four-year-old, you get divorced, what you agree on when they're four does not mean that's what it's gonna be when they're 16.

Max Emmer: And the other thing is, life happens and people move, people get new partners, jobs change, kids needs change, and so yes, you are agreeing to parenting time and things like that now, but I always say really, we're memorializing this snapshot, and there is the both mechanism and ability to modify that at any time, and I think it's maybe hard to internalize that during the process, but I always repeat that so people know you're not locking in the next 14 years today, but we also have to have your divorce at some point. So it is a balancing act. And you know what I think the other thing I would say is, I have a video on my website that I call, Don't Fight Over Pots and Pans. And I don't. Again, I think this goes to my good advice doctrine, I tell people often times not to fight about small stuff, and I had a client recently who they were doing parenting time exchanges, and the other parent was four minutes late and he called me, "What am I gonna do?" And I said to him, "Do you wanna call the police?" And he's like, "What do you mean?" I go, "She's four minutes late." I mean, if it's a regular thing.

Max Emmer: We can talk about it. But she's four minutes late. And I try to give my clients a reality check and I give my clients tough love. I always tell my clients like a good therapist. I do not blow smoke. I am an effective and zealous advocate for my client, but I do not tell them it's all rainbows and carnival rides when it isn't. And I think a lot of lawyers do a disservice to their client. 'cause in the beginning, to get them to retain them, they promise the world the moon and the stars. And then they're so disappointed 'cause they're like, you told me X, Y, Z. And so I think it is managing expectations, but also making clients realize that this process is not the end date for them and their kids. It's really just the beginning of the next chapter. And everything is always open to discussion and decision making.

Mikki Gardner: Yes. And I think a really important point just to bring home here is to your point about the client that's like, oh, they're four minutes late. Like I hear things like that all the time as well. And it's really deciding what is important to you and what isn't. And learning how to let go of what isn't a priority. Because when we hold onto those things, we're just stacking up all the problems and we become consumed by that. And then you don't have the ability or perspective to rebuild the relationship, which is required for what's next.

Max Emmer: A 100%. And that's why frankly a lot of family lawyers, whether it's ego, like I love working with professionals, co-parenting, family therapy, whatever it is, I like the multidisciplinary approach. And at the same time it's like if I have couples who are fighting over extracurricular activities, like I'm happy to do it. But instead of paying two lawyers to go over there, work with a parenting expert and professional, who can help you work through it. And one thing I always see, and I actually co-mediate several cases with family therapists and a lot of times, especially on child issues, the parties are talking past each other. And they actually oftentimes aren't on such different pages. They're just in such a heightened state of fight or flight mode that they can't realize it. And I was in a mediation session once and the parties were arguing over soccer and I finally stopped them. I go, you both want your kid to do soccer and you're both willing to pay half. We're just arguing about like the day. So why don't we just focus on that? Because it was all of these issues and we boiled it down and we were able to resolve it in about 15 minutes. But if we weren't taking that kind of thoughtful and reasoned approach, we could have gone 12 rounds on soccer.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. So I think that's a really good point because a lot of times it is expensive to get divorced and there's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of money. It's like all of your resources are just being drained at that point. And it's the exact time that you need that multidisciplinary approach. It's the exact time. I mean, if they're lucky enough to have an amazing attorney like you who is being that for them, that's a gift. A lot of times. Maybe you don't.

Max Emmer: No.

Mikki Gardner: And it's so important to invest in your own mental health and your own ability to move forward to what's next by doing the work to make sure that you have someone in your corner giving you perspective, accountability and support. And that's where I'm grateful to be doing what I do for clients. But we need to be able to really start to see there's points in life and seasons where we have to invest. Time, money, energy.

Max Emmer: You said it perfectly. And I'll tell you in any consult I have, I always ask if they're in therapy, if they have it there. And I always say, this doesn't come from a place of judgment. This doesn't come from a place of moral superiority. But I always tell them, and I'm someone personally who look, I'm very honest. 10 years ago I was very reticent and/or dismissive of therapy and through certain personal things, I've been in regular therapy on and off for eight years. And I think it's wonderful and I always tell people it's funny, my biggest fear before I had therapy was, once you start, you can't stop. Like Pringles. I go, if I'm signing up now, I'm signing up for 60 years. But I tell people again and I think you put it so well, chapters and seasons of life.

Max Emmer: Hey, we're not saying you have to go once or twice a week for the next 20 years. See someone a few times. We have a mutually shared colleague who I work with a lot as a co-parenting counselor and parenting time coordinator. And I always tell people if they're resistant, I go meet her once or twice. I'm not saying you have to sign up for 20 sessions. And you are absolutely right. And I actually might steal this from you. I really like that phrasing of like, this is a time in life where you have to invest and look, I'm never one to count other people's money, but you're right. This is so important legally, emotionally, financially, spiritually, just logistically that it really doesn't make sense to cut short it. And frankly, getting with professionals who think like us is not necessarily more expensive. I mean, I can say honestly, I am one of the more reasonably priced lawyers in our area. And if you go to the killers or pit bulls, that's when you're spending double.

Mikki Gardner: Well, and I think also it's like spending the time, money, and energy today to invest in your tomorrow.

Max Emmer: Absolutely.

Mikki Gardner: Because if you don't, you are spending hours of lost sleep, of anxiety, of overwhelm, your energy is going to be completely depleted from that exhaustion and that inability to move forward and money is going to be spent either legally or with therapists or drugs or whatever down the road to deal with what we haven't dealt with. And so there are seasons where we need support and I mean, I have a coach, I have a therapist, they're on speed dial. But you don't need them every single day. But I really believe that we have to change the idea around what support looks like because we think it's insular just to the family or just get a lawyer and then you're done. But it really is how are you supporting yourself so you can support your children and getting your children the support that they need in this, because you and I have talked about this, I'm a firm believer that the legal system and divorce, as we have it set up right now, children are collateral damage in adult issues. And it's wrong.

Max Emmer: There are certainly flaws and unfortunately kids can be used kind of as a hammer versus the nail and kids can be weaponized. Absolutely.

Mikki Gardner: Well Absolutely. But also just Max, in the burden that they have to carry the weight that they have to carry, they are the ones traveling between houses. They are the ones trying to navigate two parents that are upset. They are the ones that are watching this. And that is a weight that they just should not have to carry. And so my whole job is to figure out how can we take back some of the weights so that it's on our shoulders and not theirs.

Max Emmer: That's perfectly stated. Well I just thought of being child-centric. I finished a case recently that was pretty amicable and one thing I like to do as you talk about kids going back and forth houses, this case they had a family dog and the kids were very close to the dog. And so I said, I believe and their family therapist agreed let the dog travel with the kids on the same schedule. And my client was against that. And I said to him in nicer terms, look, your eight-year-old deserves the dog over you. And I know you love the dog, but you're getting the divorce and if this is a sacrifice you have to make for your kids, like you've gotta do it. And he listened. But I think you're so right and I think really, I always say I'm not a lawyer who wants to make an agreement that drops you and you're in the front of the court every week for the next 10 years after.

Mikki Gardner: Exactly.

Max Emmer: I believe as you astutely pointed out, investing the time and the resources and the effort now can save you from all that. And I always say, look, if you go fire and brimstone nuclear litigation and then you're just done, how do you think you're supposed to go to graduations, convenience, bar Mitzvah's, weddings after you just slung mud called the other person the worst names in the world and drained all their money. I always say, I want to say, you don't have to be best-friends, but do you really want to do things and say things and act a way now where you can't coexist at your child's wedding or high school graduation or move in? And that is a very compelling sentiment that I think when I tell people and I always differentiate it, I'm not saying you have to love them or be best friends or forgive them, but this impacts your relationship with your child and most importantly it impacts your child's perspective on the world and relationships. And I think we have a very solemn responsibility with the jobs we do to help people curate a process and a evolution that least harms their children and I think it's one we both take very humbly and seriously.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And this actually leads me to something I wanted to talk about and I think it's a good transition point here is this idea of parenting time and that story that you just gave about the dog. And I would love for you to sort of talk just a little bit, I know it's a big topic so we have to condense it for time, but this idea of parenting time, because it's like, oh, do we do 50/50? Do we do one week on, one week off? Is it the 20, 50, 40. I don't know, there's so many numbers.

Max Emmer: 2-2-5s.

Mikki Gardner: 2-2-5s all the things. Versus can we just figure out what your children need and find a way to support them through that? And so from that angle, I'd love for you to talk to us about what parenting time looks like, how we could navigate that, 'cause that is one of the things that people struggle with most just with the idea of divorce is losing their children. And so.

Max Emmer: 100%. There's been a major revolution I would say over the last 50 years and I haven't practiced that, but 50 years ago, courts pretty much said mom gets the kids, dad sees them every other weekend and dad pays all child support. I mean, that has evolved for a lot of reasons, most for the better when we talk about custody and parenting time are relative of their children when we talk about custody. Legal custody is major decision making for the children. Healthcare, religion, education, et cetera. Most cases parties share joint legal custody. When we talk about physical custody and parenting time, that is the day-to-day schedule of the kids. Oftentimes if both parents want it and they're fit parents, we tend to default to 50/50 parenting which means that if there are seven overnights a week or we tend to do them in two week periods.

Max Emmer: So 14 overnights, the parents are each gonna get seven overnights. And there's a few different ways to do that. There is week on, week off there is 2-2-5 which is basically one parent gets every Monday, Tuesday the other gets every Wednesday Thursday and the alternate Friday, Saturday, Sunday. The thing I like about collaborative and working with family therapists is we can get even more creative. I had a case recently where both parents were physicians and the three basic parenting time schedules did not work for them. So we actually curated them an incredibly detailed and specified parenting time plan, which we would not have done in court. When you say putting the needs of the kids first, no matter what, we have to memorialize a parenting plan and we don't want ambiguity, but parents don't have to get granular to the minute if they don't want to.

Max Emmer: And it can always be altered. One thing I always say with parenting time, that is an ever breathing agreement as kids age, as activities change. One thing I want to caution on because kid buy-in and kid needs is very important, but we never want be in a position where the kids are deciding. Like I had a client recently who their child was 15 and obviously a 15-year-old and a seven-year-old are different and they wanted to put in like once the child has their driver's license, they can basically choose. And I'm like, we can't do that. You two are still the parents and might enforcement be difficult. Sure. Parents still have to be the decision maker. So I absolutely think needs of the kids are important. I'll say this, I don't love week on week off for younger kids and I don't love schedules where the kids are shuffling back and forth everyday.

Max Emmer: So it is a balance and one thing we often do is we make sure the kids and obviously this is a socioeconomic thing too, but to the fullest extent possible, we want them to have clothes at both houses, toys at both house so they don't feel like they're living out of a suitcase or a bathtub. And certainly whatever we can do to make it more seamless and comfortable. Absolutely. But we do have to have a memorialized and fairly straightforward parenting time plan because ambiguity and vagueness begets disputes later. So I am willing as a lawyer professional, whether it's directly with my clients and/or with the assistance of the appropriate professional to look at a universe of parenting time plans. And that's why I like working with parenting time experts because they've seen every career, every location. Every schedule. And for me I'm kind of like, yeah, week on week off 2-2-5, or 2-3. So I always say I have amazing resources in my repertoire. I provide them to my clients. I don't force them down their throats, but when I think they can be helpful and beneficial, I absolutely make them available and endorse that that's someone I like to work with.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. And I think that's a great point for the person listening. Who might not be in Michigan who might not be able to.

Max Emmer: Sure. Anywhere.

Mikki Gardner: To hire you, but really figuring out what are your options. And you as the client are in charge. Nobody else.

Max Emmer: Absolutely it is.

Mikki Gardner: Right. You work for them, I work for them. Like this is what they are in charge and they have the answers. It's simply our job to give them every resource and opportunity to figure it out.

Max Emmer: Absolutely. And I always say, this is your life and your case. It's not mine. I am not the decision maker, I'm not the arbiter. I am here again to help you navigate this and to provide you the information and resources to make the best decision for yourself. And I think a lot of lawyers sometimes do take the helm. One, I do it selfishly for liability sake, but also just common sense. It's not my life, it's not my family. Who am I to decide? I'm there to be a shepherd and a guide and a shoulder to help you decide during that time.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. So that leads me to sort of the last question that I wanna ask here, because I'm always trying to put myself in my audience's shoes and there's a lot of women in this audience. And so I want you to speak to the woman who is maybe just either contemplating or her husband has asked or partner, whatever the situation is. But she's starting to go into this, she's scared, she's freaked out. What would you tell her?

Max Emmer: Okay, the first, oh, that's another great question. The first thing I would say is I think you should talk to one to three lawyers and get a sense of who you like, style, philosophy, personality, get some general advice and counsel, fill that out. The other advice I would have is, I hope you have a therapist or someone you can talk to that's not family or a friend. And the other piece of advice is whatever access you have or information you either have or need to get, I would start one, compiling your financial information so you either know what you have and/or know what you need to get. And two, if there are concerning issues, say about money or abuse or kid issues. I never wanna turn someone into a stenographer, but start keeping records of that if there's certain conversations, if there's certain incidents or events because if there's ever issues down the road, it's better to have a recollection of that than a written memory.

Max Emmer: And the one thing I always tell people, a lot of lawyers are like car salesmen they want you to retain and sign the line that day. Unless there is a serious issue regarding the health and safety of your children or your spouse's stealing or pilfering money. There's really nothing emergent. That means you need to sign today versus Monday or today versus three weeks from now. Child support and spouse support are not gonna change that much over one month. If someone says they're worried about how much child support it's gonna be and then they wait five years, yes it could change, but do not feel bull rushed into doing anything. And unless there's an emergency, you absolutely have the right and should take your time and know that if the first lawyer or therapist you meet isn't a fit, there are others out there and there are resources to help you find it.

Max Emmer: I always say I am a 100% word of mouth referral. I don't do paid advertising. And I always tell people, if I'm not your guy, I will help you find your guy or gal. And what I just think that's the right thing to do, but it also helps my business 'cause some of the best referrals I get are from people who don't work with me, but they're like, wow, that Max ever took the time to talk to me when he knew he wasn't for me. And so there are good, thoughtful, creative professionals out there to help you and I truly mean it. People like myself and Mikki, if we can help you directly, great. If not, there are people like us all over. And I'm gonna echo one thing Mikki said, this is your life and your process and people work for you. And if you have questions, if you have expectations or you have concerns and things aren't being met do not be a shrinking violet. You absolutely have a right to be heard and get the service, care and representation you deserve and are paying for.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. Oh, thank you Max for saying that. I think it hits home and has weight coming from someone in your position and I appreciate that.

Max Emmer: No, my pleasure.

Mikki Gardner: I know that we could talk for many, many hours and maybe we will talk again soon here.

Max Emmer: Well, when we get a million listeners, I'll come back.

Mikki Gardner: Oh, okay. All right.

Max Emmer: There we go. Right.

Mikki Gardner: Any day now. So I always ask the same question of every guest, and so I would love for you to define confidence and how it shows up in your life.

Max Emmer: Oh, that's such a great question. I'm never speechless, but I'm kind of speech. You know what? It's funny. I will say this, people who know me, and if you see me in my business I'm a pretty outgoing, gregarious person. I always say, and people don't believe me. I actually was a very shy child and a shy teenager. I don't know how I turned into this. Whatever I say. I believe confidence manifests in different ways for different people. I think there's quiet confidence and I think there's gregarious confidence internally and external confidence. I know for me and I still have my points of shyness, but my confidence recently, this is a good answer. I think I in the last five years would say I've morphed into my most authentic self and I feel most confident when I am my most authentic. And whether that's personally or professionally, I am unabashedly who I am for better or worse. And I know in my business that translate because I always say my clients who come to me, they hire me. They like my shtick as I put it. Like they do not want a stodgy 73-year-old mahogany desk law library lawyer. Those are great. But I have a style and a personality that's different from most, but I believe it makes my clients feel comfortable.

Max Emmer: And I would say for me when I am being my true self, which can be gregarious and loud and warm and thoughtful, I feel I am both being and performing at my best. And I think everyone reaches that age and time in their life when they are comfortable in their own skin. I say for me, I think it took me into my 30s, but I think when you're comfortable with yourself and who you are, and not that you don't care what other people think 'cause we all do in one way or another, but when you accept who you are and the people who love you, great. The people you don't, that's okay. I think that's true confidence.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. Oh, I love that answer. Thank you so much.

Max Emmer: Sure.

Mikki Gardner: Well, until next time, thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and I'm really grateful you were here with us today.

Max Emmer: Thanks Mikki privilege and a pleasure. And if anyone ever needs help, please reach out and I'm happy to talk with you anytime and look forward to doing this again in the future.

Mikki Gardner: Yeah. And all of your contact information is in the show notes so they can find you.

Max Emmer: Awesome.

Mikki Gardner: So thank you.

Max Emmer: Thank you so much.

Mikki Gardner: Oh, and one more thing, the legal stuff. This podcast is solely intended for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for any medical advice. Please consult your physician or a qualified medical professional for personalized medical advice. Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.