Ep #87: Doing Divorce Different with Lesa Koski

Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother. And I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well get ready and let's dive into today's episode. Mikki: Hi friends, and welcome back to the podcast. So I wanna know, are you already divorced? Are you thinking about maybe getting divorced? Are you in the middle of the process of getting divorced? Or maybe you already are, but you wish you could have done so many things differently? Well, wherever you're at today, is a great episode to listen to. But before we dive into that, I wanna tell you about something that's coming up. We only have a couple days left when this is coming out to sign up for a one time only beta program. What does that mean? It means that I am considering something and I wanted to offer a first round to you. And why do I wanna do it right now? Because I think now is the perfect time. Summer is coming. There's a lot of change. If you've gone through divorce, you know that there's been so much change in your life. Mikki: And so if there's one thing that we can get really good at, it's learning how to be resilient and navigate change. And that is one of the things that I'm super passionate about teaching moms how to do. We innately do this really well, but when you set your intention, your purpose, to learn how to set yourself up for when the seasons change, whether that's the actual season, whether that's a life season, whether that's conflict and things that are coming along, when you can set yourself up to know that you can handle it, that you are grounded and capable no matter what comes your way, mama, this is a superpower. And so I am offering a small group this summer where we are going to take a journey together in a small group. It'll be virtual so you don't have to go anywhere. You can do this from your own home, but you can connect with other moms who are going through the same thing you are. Mikki: And I am going to help lead you guys and we are going to learn from one another, but we are going to come out on the other side more empowered, more resilient, and more intentional. So if you are interested, I want you to go to Instagram and DM me and tell me that you want in so that we can get you into the group if it's a good fit for you. Or you can email me at [email protected]. It's in the show notes. So let's dive into today's conversation because I'm so excited to bring this to you. Lesa Koski is with us and she is a divorce attorney turned mediator. She is incredible. And why is she a divorce attorney turned mediator? Because she's a peacemaker. And this is what I love so much about her. She is going to share tips with us to help you get through the divorce process as painlessly as possible. Mikki: She's gonna talk about the strategies and the tools that she helps people as a mediator go through. But even if you're not in mediation, even if you're already divorced or maybe you're not even in the process, I guarantee that you are gonna find some nuggets here that are really helpful for you to learn how to create peaceful arrangements no matter where you are in the process. And the great thing about it is she has a legal background, so she's got some street cred there and can give us some tangible ways to make sure that you're doing that in a positive direction. So without further ado, I wanna jump into this conversation. But again, even if you're not in this process, I want you to go ahead and keep listening because I want you to open your ears and ask, "What can I learn here from this conversation that I can use in my own co-parenting life today to make it more cooperative and more collaborative?" Because mama, you can and it is all about your perspective and your mindset. And so I want you to keep listening with that in mind. So without further ado, let's take a listen. Mikki: Oh, mamas, I have a treat for you today. I am so excited to have Lesa Koski here with me and welcome. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Lesa: Mikki, thank you so much for having me. I'm just excited to be here and chat with you. Mikki: Awesome. So Lisa, I gave everybody a little bit of info about you and the amazingness and all the extraordinary value you put out in the world, but I would love to hear in your words, sort of tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got where you are today. Lesa: Sure. Well, thanks so much for having me on and I just want you to know, I so appreciate everything you are doing. Mikki: Well, thank you. Lesa: I love it when people take their passion and use it to help the world. And I kind of, in a crazy way came to the spot that I am. I do divorces different, I help people co-parent well together. And I've been married for 31 years. Mikki: Love it. [laughter] Love it. Lesa: It is, it's very interesting. I think I've been married so long because I've learned so much from my clients and how to have a good relationship. And my hope is that I help people to have better relationships moving forward when they work with me. But I didn't start out doing this. After law school everyone told me, "You can't just be a mediator." So I learned about mediation when I was in law school, but kind of just stayed away from it thinking I won't be able to have a practice or earn any money. Lesa: And then as time marched on and I did some real soul searching, I realized mediation was such a better fit for me and I decided to just throw caution to the wind. Even though everyone told me, "You will not be able to only do this." Guess what? It's all I do now. I don't even practice law anymore. I do divorces and the thing, I keep up, I have my license and I think the thing that's helpful is that I can give legal information, can advise anyone, but I'm also a mama and a grandma and I love children. And I think how I got swept into the divorce process was those kids, I want to help people do this better because I want them to thrive. Mikki: Absolutely. So help us parse this a little bit apart here. So what's the difference between a "normal divorce" and a mediated one? Lesa: Well, I mean, I think when you think of a normal divorce, it's just kind of what everybody thinks. You know, just how it's supposed to be. You're gonna fight about it, you're gonna hire attorneys, you're gonna each be represented and then a judge is gonna make the decisions and design everything for you. And when you do the mediated process, you can still have attorneys advise you if it's needed, but you get to design your own divorce, you get to decide how you want to continue to parent for your children together. And, I mean, judges are awesome, but they don't love your kids. And so I want my clients and that's why I have a parenting plan course too, that can be used all throughout the United States. If you are going through a divorce or thinking about it or even have never been married, it's a great opportunity to help parents work together. Mikki: So my mind's spinning here a little bit. [laughter] I'll be totally honest because I wanna go two different directions. There's one, right? Yes. The parenting plan, how do we go through that mediated process, especially if maybe the other partner isn't necessarily on board sometimes, sort of we get into those legal battles... Lesa: Right. Mikki: Against our will. And then there's a separate thing you just said that I really want to pick up on too, which is because I'm seeing this more and more in my audience. Those people who have never been married and then end up co-parenting without anything. And it's this very sort of haphazard, unclear, anxiety producing relationship. And so I'm gonna let you pick, which way do you wanna go? [laughter] Lesa: I want, I'm so excited to talk about both of them and I can tell you your first question I can maybe answer a little bit quickly. So let's just go to that first one because here's the thing that does kinda stink. I have great clients who wanna work together. When you do, when you go through the mediation process, it's voluntary. It takes two people. Now, when I do my consultations, I make sure that everybody understands the benefit of doing it together. But I can't make anyone believe me, and I can't make anyone do it. So sadly, it's not always an option. And that's where you need, and so, I said a normal divorce and a mediated divorce, sometimes people need that representation and it's the way it's gonna go. And you're just gonna take care of yourself, keep your head up and do your best. Mikki: Yeah. Yeah. I love that honesty because sometimes that's where you find yourself. But that doesn't mean also I think just sort of quick PSA, just because you find yourself maybe in that place where the other person isn't willing does not mean that you have to meet them in the conflict, in the low blows, in the attack and all of it. You can still decide who you wanna be in that process and move through it. It'll be challenging. But luckily, my audience is super strong so they can do this. Lesa: Yes. And I love that. And I also love that when you work on yourself, sometimes that other person jumps on, and starts following your lead. I often tell people, even if they don't wanna get marriage counseling, maybe just get counseling for yourself and sometimes it saves the marriage. Mikki: Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause we are the greatest influencer in our families. And so, you know how if we stop trying to control everyone and the outcome and start really focusing on how can you influence in the direction, the positive, loving direction, people can't help but naturally go that way too. It's really hard to fight with someone who refuses to fight back. Lesa: Absolutely. And doesn't it feel better to you too? Why should you suffer and just make it better for yourself and then let the other person kind of do their own thing, I guess. Mikki: Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back to that question about sort of maybe people who were never married and didn't have this, or maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but they kind of like, how do you end up not agreeing to a bunch of stuff that you don't, that you end up regretting or this sort of ominous, like no plan whatsoever. Can you talk through what that might look like? Lesa: I can a little bit, and it's interesting that you're bringing this up because I too am noticing, and I think it's interesting that I mentioned for those people who have never been married, because I am getting new clients that are saying we were never married. We've always just worked it out and, or we never had a parenting plan and we've just been working it out and now my spouse has cancer and he lives across the country and what... They're trying to figure things out. So you can do it at any time, even if you've been kind of co-parenting. In fact, you're gonna be really educated on what has worked and what maybe hasn't. So I, the parenting plan that I have on my online course is very, I mean, it's all inclusive and I always tell people, take what you want and let go of what you don't. Lesa: And there's a lot in there that I'm always hoping that when you're going through something hard, you're not always thinking clearly. I mean, we do our best to get ready emotionally, but I'm hoping that this will help you think of things that maybe you didn't think of, like introducing a significant other to the child. Or maybe if you have different ideas on medications, maybe one parent would be all for, I mean, it could be a vaccine, it could be an antidepressant or anxiety or... So, just to set yourself up so you can intentionally think through what's gonna happen always with the knowledge that it can change, you can ebb and flow. And the thing is, is if something changes and you wanna change the agreement, you don't have to go to court. You can just go over it and you can make the agreement together and agree. Mikki: Oh, I love that reminder. Right? Because I think a lot of people feel like, I hear it all the time. Well I made that decision, I agreed to it then. So it's this very, well, there it is kind of hands off victimy approach and I mean that with love. But we kinda get stuck in that sometimes versus this idea and this mindset that you can always be adjusting, you can always be creating. And I love that about your work. And better mindset and having a better divorce is part of your entire process. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Lesa: You bet I can. And I think I lost my little card that tells me all about that. But I'm a little bit different where I kind of coach people a little bit. And I think we're similar that way because before they mediate with me, I send out a little video helping them get in the right mindset because we want to be as unemotional as we can so we can use that prodigy or sage brain or whatever you wanna call it. So part of working with me is you get that coaching piece and that's my underlying, nobody's like thinking they want that when they sign on, they just want me to help them. But I'm giving it to them because I think they need it and I don't want them to be back with me ever again or going through this again. And I think when you learn how to control your mind, how to be intentional with your conversations, that you're going to set yourself up to have better ones. And honest to God's, there have been a few who have stayed together because when we can work through some of the issues, maybe they're having an issue with finances. And if we can work through it and get it figured out, they go, "Well, that was our issue. Maybe we don't need to get divorced." Mikki: Yeah. Lesa: That's interesting too. Mikki: Yes, absolutely. So can you tell us about the four-step process that you offer to help get people into a better mindset? Lesa: You bet. And in fact, what I usually do is I write it down. I was gonna just hold up a little card, but I think it flew off my desk. [laughter] And so it's just C the circumstance, the thought, the feeling and the result. So I write, I do this myself every day. I write down a C a T an F and an R and, the circumstance. So I have a mediation coming up. Lesa: Okay. So how are you feeling about that? And usually they're pretty nervous or scared or hyped up about it. So, I teach them how to walk through this and then I say, "What is the thought behind that feeling that's causing you to feel anxious or scared?" And it could be a whole array of things. It could be, I don't know anything about my finances. Lesa: Could be the thought. Okay? So then we look at, how is that making you react? Obviously, they're not coming as their best self. They're scared. They can't come up with what they're gonna wanna talk about. So then we start looking at, how do you want to respond to this? 'Cause you're in control of your mind. And so if we can change that feeling to one of more confidence, so with a thought that's believable, they have to believe it. So maybe it's, I'm starting to understand my finances, I'm a woman, learning how to budget. Whatever that is, that can give you a little bit more, can help you be intentional about the upcoming mediation and in a better mindset. There's also little tips that I give about like sandwiching it into some good things. Like get your yummiest coffee before and go soak in a tub after the mediation. So there's things that you're kind of looking forward to. I also teach because it can get fiery. Right? It's emotional. So sometimes I just say, "If this happens and you're feeling this way, plant your feet on the floor. Feel your feet there." You can still be in the conversation, but it makes you more present and more able to use the side of your brain that we want them working from because they are doing something really important when they work with me, they are designing their divorce. Mikki: Oh, I love what you just said and sort of the practical nature of breaking it down. And I think it's really important to look at that and what you so beautifully just illustrated is really turning into a growth mindset. The fixed mindset being one, that this is all it is, it's not gonna get any better. I'm sort of stuck here, versus this growth mindset, which is you don't have to believe it's all gonna be perfect, but how are we just turning into how can we believe one step in the direction towards what we want? And most importantly, how can you be part of the solution instead of part of the problem? And that's where I think that growth mindset is crucial in this area. Lesa: Yeah. I totally agree wholeheartedly. I love that. I love to think of this as an opportunity. They're going through something hard, they're doing it a better way. And honestly, many of my clients who are out two three years or the people that I talk to turn around and say, "I'm so thankful I went through that. I grew so much, I learned so much. I have a better relationship now." I mean, I haven't come across anyone who's like, "Darn, I wish I went to... We should," not a lot. Mikki: Not a lot. Lesa: To keep that in mind when you're going through something hard that there is the other side. And it is an opportunity for growth even though it's hard right now. Mikki: Yeah, yeah. So what do you see as maybe the top one or two biggest struggles that women face, either going into or during or coming out of the divorce? Lesa: Right. There's a couple, and I think they're tied. But one of the first things is, if you have children, everyone is terrified of not seeing their kids every day. Mikki: Of course. Lesa: And we can work with that. And you know we sometimes set it up so that they do see them every day. If that's really important to them, we set up so that one of them has dinner or... Like I've had moms who are breastfeeding, and they both agree that dad will get different time, but mom will be there more during this time and that they're gonna work towards a different schedule. And we'll even sketch out what that schedule might look like. So I can help people with that, but I think that is a big fear because it's daunting, and it's just hard and things are gonna change. Mikki: They are, yeah. Lesa: So that's one. And then the other thing... And I can... I have so much empathy because I think this would be my area of concern, it's the finances. So many times we just... I mean, I know I'm not great about budgeting. I'm a woman working to get better at budgeting, but finances can scare me. Lesa: And I've really been working on that a lot. And I'm growing a lot and learning. And that's what's so awesome too. Is when you see these women that you're working through who are starting to get a hold of it, and it's so scary to do their budget, but once they do it, they kind of sit a little taller. They have some clarity. They're starting to understand things because honestly, it's not that hard. Finances really are not that hard. For some reason we just think they are. Mikki: Absolutely. And they're presented to be hard, right? Lesa: Yeah. Mikki: Through all of the... Just the system. It's meant to be very elusive and sort of out there, and only certain people can do it when really it's like second grade math when your really break it down. Lesa: It is. Mikki: So if you can do second grade math which I'm confident we all can here, you can do it. But I think to your point, it's really getting into the mindset of being willing to look at things, which is so important. Lesa: Yes, I agree. So I think those are the two, the top two things. Mikki: Yeah. And my heart goes out to both situations because there's just... They're terrifying. One goes to... Both of them go to your safety and your belonging. And those are two basic fears that we as humans are wired to not mess with. And when they get messed with, it is extremely triggering for anybody, so a lot of compassion. And definitely reaching out for help, whatever that looks like, is necessary. Mikki: Also something that I found really interesting in your work and what you put out in the world is the collaborative communication. And this is something I talk about ad nauseam. And so I think my audience would love to hear it from somebody else. Lesa: I would love to speak on that. And it's something that is just part of who I am. I think it's... Which is why I love mediation. It's just so fitting for me. And it's all kind of easy when you think about the concepts like, listen. Listen to the other person. Take the time. And when you can, restate what they've said to show you're understanding it. Boom. It's amazing. Lesa: And that's kind of my role in the... It's so fun to be able to be with people and to help them start doing this where I can say, "Okay, I understand you're saying this." And it's so interesting how sometimes they don't even know what their issues are until they really sit and get into it and start communicating well. Lesa: So, of course, the first thing is to listen, to say it back and build rapport. I mean, you used to love this person, and especially if you have kids. But even if you don't, just for your own good and integrity, to be kind. And here's one trick that I use. See that person as a small child that they were and feel some love and empathy for them. And I do this... Lesa: I mean, I have to do it with my husband sometimes. And I get so fire coming out of my ears, and I have to think, okay, Johnny cakes. This is how you were as a child. And so I think empathizing with that person, listening really well, and restating would be my top to help people. Mikki: That's such a good one. Yeah, I heard... I'm getting into parenting of a teenager these days, so it's a different ball game all together. And so I'm having to really learn new skills as it relates to being a parent. But one thing I heard recently that reminds me of this is really my only job is to listen in the entirety of whatever he has to say and then put it in a headline. Put it in like that one like boom. Mikki: This is what it means. And if I can do that, I did my job, and then he will feel heard and listened to. Maybe we have to go further, maybe we don't. But I was thinking it really just all of these parenting and co-parenting skills that I teach, and I know you are, they're just adulting skills. How do we just be kind, respectful adults in the world? But I love that one, so I wanted to add that on. I think the things that you said were perfect. And it's like, how can we just get a synopsis in one quick sentence? This is what I heard you say. Lesa: This is what I heard you say. And so as your child the same with the spouse or the co-parent that you're working through this with, same, it's the same thing. Mikki: Yeah, just the compassion to listen. And I would love to keep you all day, but I try to be respectful of time. So what haven't we covered here that you... What is maybe a piece of advice or something you wish that women knew of as they're going through this process? Lesa: Well, I wish... I mean, my passion is I want everyone to know that you can do this your own way, that you can do this a different way. And I'm gonna take that little caveat that, okay, there are... If it's a narcissist, if there's not someone that you're working with, yes, those are times when you can't. But overall, I've had people that I've helped to... They came to my mediation session and they were a little bit late because he had to pick her up from jail for punching... Because she punched him in the face the day before. Mikki: Awesome. Yeah. Lesa: And I was new. And I was like, "Oh, I don't think this is gonna work." They were so dedicated. And there was underlying love. And I learned something that day that they communicated different than I did. They were a little bit abrupt, a little... And sometimes I have to let that go if we're gonna get somewhere and if they're comfortable with it. Lesa: So just to know to look into your options. And Mikki, there are so many resources. I have resources on my website for financial coaches, for people like you that are helping them co-parent. You've got a great way of co-parenting that's very different, thinking outside the box and designing it yourself, making the decisions within the parameters of the law. So if you are working with someone who has a good understanding, I can give you some legal information. I love that because you don't want an agreement that isn't gonna float in court. Mikki: Sure, of course. Lesa: But I think those... I think just think outside the box and know that there is another option. There's another way that you can do this. Mikki: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. And if there's one thing I think we can all do is if we can learn how to trust ourselves in our intuition, especially as mamas, you know what's right for you. You know what's good for you. And sometimes we have to go outside the box and be willing to really push through maybe the resistance or the blocks or the obstacles or all the people that say it's never gonna work, to really trust yourself to figure it out. Because I think that's one thing that you and I both have in common is, there's a way to do it. It's just you have to be willing to trust yourself and then get that team around you to build the perfect thing for you. Lesa: Yeah. And it becomes this creative, beautiful piece of art work. I see it. I feel like I get to be creative. And when you can come up with an agreement that fits two people and their family, it's amazing. It's a gift. Mikki: Yeah, absolutely. So my last question, I ask everyone this, 'cause I would be remiss if I didn't. But how do you define and create confidence? Lesa: That is a huge question, Mikki. Mikki: Huge. Lesa: Huge. And I think about it. I have to think about it personally for myself because the journey that I have taken, what has brought me the most confidence is loving myself, loving my... And I was thinking about this, loving myself unconditionally, allowing myself to make mistakes and be who I am, be authentic with other people, not beating myself up if I don't know something, saying, "You know what? I don't know, but let's figure that out." And just being who I am has changed my life immensely in the past few years. Lesa: And I think it seems like a strange way to come by confidence. You will think of the increase your knowledge. And all of that helps. But first, you gotta love yourself enough so that you feel comfortable finding the knowledge and stop suffering through it, just enjoy the journey. Mikki: Oh, I love that answer. That's such a good one. Thank you. Lesa: You're welcome. Mikki: So I can't recommend your parenting plan process enough. So I will definitely get that in the show notes and check that out for wherever you are in the process. Because I think it can help you just evaluate what's working, what isn't working. So I love that resource and thank you. How else can people connect with you? Lesa: They can find me at lesakoski.com. It's L-E-S-A. My podcast, which you are a guest on, Doing Divorce Different. You can find me on all the major platforms. I'm on Instagram and Facebook. I've done a couple of TikToks, but not... Mikki: Oh, look at you. Lesa: Yes. It's a little scary. And my kids are like, "Are you kidding me? What are you doing?" You can find me on LinkedIn. Just Google Lesa Koski and you'll find me. Connect with me. I'm here. I wanna help in any way that I can. Mikki: Lesa, thank you so much. And thank you for taking the time away to do this with us today. And I really appreciate it. Lesa: Mikki, thank you so much. I wouldn't wanna be any place else right now. Mikki: Thank you. Oh, and one more thing, the legal stuff. This podcast is solely intended for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for any medical advice. Please consult your physician or your qualified medical professional for personalized medical advice. Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week. [music]