Ep #98: Conversation with Dorothy Johnson, the Breakup Coach

[music] Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who want to move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly want to be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother, and I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready and let's dive into today's episode. [music] Mikki: Welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited about today. I just had the most beautiful conversation with Dorothy Johnson. Who is she for those of you that don't know? Well, she is the breakup coach. She helps women turn their pain into power and their heartbreak into happy without it just taking time. I know everyone always says that old adage, time heals all wounds, but it doesn't. And Dorothy talks about exactly why and how. It's not about just letting time pass, but you actually take control and take power over the situation. She's here to help women just like us learn how to get over their ex, forgive and let go so that they can stop obsessing and start obsessing over creating the amazing life that they have in front of them, learning how to commit to what they want and practice that commitment day in and day out until they get there. Mikki: And I know for those of us here on this podcast with our beautiful children in tow, this is a really important conversation to have because we all have to heal the heartbreak of divorce, grieve the loss that we've gone through and do it while continuing to be an amazing mom to our kids. And so Dorothy and I kind of dive into that topic and I'm so excited to bring her to you. She is inspiring, fun, funny, and just an all around amazing woman. So I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. So without further ado, let's dive in. Well, I am so excited today for this conversation. Dorothy Johnson is here, the one and only, and I am so excited. Thank you for joining us today. Dorothy: Thank you so much, Mikki, for having me. I'm really, really excited to be here. So I appreciate you asking me to come on. Mikki: Absolutely. I've been really looking forward to this conversation because if there is one thing that we know as co-parents, right, it's that we have to learn how to move past the divorce, past the separation, past the trauma, past the pain, and we have to do it while being amazing parents to your children. And this is a tall, tall order. And I thought who better to talk to, but the expert in breakups. And so I'm super excited to have you here and for you to share your wisdom with my audience. I did tell them a little bit about you, but I would love for you to tell us sort of who you are, what you love doing and how you got here. Dorothy: Yeah, no, thank you so much. So yeah, I guess my journey starts back in 2016. I went through a very traumatic breakup with a man who I had been dating for about seven years. He was definitely that person that I was like, I'm going to marry. I'm going to be with forever. We're going to have kids. He got done with graduate school and we moved back to Florida together and it kind of felt like everything was finally coming together, right? Like all the steps had been taken. We both finished graduate school. We were living our big, big girl and big boy jobs. We bought the house. We were kind of settling down and I was like, Oh my gosh, we get to really start our life together and get married and have kids and do all of that. I went to Chicago for a work trip and he broke up with me on the phone and I'm a really stubborn person. Dorothy: And so when that happened, I moved into an apartment with my suitcase and I told him that I would come get my stuff once he was like no longer at the house. Like he had to be gone from the home. But once I got to the house about a month later to pick up all my things, he had piled all my stuff into the front room and there had been a girl living there ever since I had left on my work trip. And so not only was I just, sad, devastated, grieving, my best friend and the person I thought I'd spend the rest of my life with, but I was super angry and super, super resentful that this person had just seemingly kind of stepped in and taken everything I'd worked so hard for for the past seven years. And she was just going to be handed this life that, I envisioned for myself and I was going to have to start all over and I didn't know what that was going to look like. Dorothy: And I had so much fear around all of that. But at the same time, throughout that experience, I was very committed and determined to figuring out like, how can I have the life that I thought I was going to have with him without him? Because I just didn't want to go backwards. He had shown me a way of life that I didn't even know was possible. I didn't even, I call it like the portal of possibility. He really opened my eyes to the kind of lifestyle I really wanted, the kind of family dynamic I really wanted. And so I was really committed. And so I started my journey just Googling, right? How do you get over your ex? How do you forgive and let go? How do you move on when your ex moved on quickly? Dorothy: I was... Not only was I Googling all the things, right? I was really doing all of it. I was journaling. I was meditating. I was getting in the best shape of my life. I was traveling around the world and from the outside in, it looked like I was thriving. But deep down inside, I was just so still filled with so much anger and resentment. And about a year and a half later, I had found myself in a new relationship and I just started seeing those old patterns pop up, right? I was comparing him to my ex. I was still making decisions in hopes to get my ex's attention. I was still thinking about my ex very often. I was stalking the social media. I was stalking his new girlfriend's social media, and I just could not let it go. Dorothy: And that's when I really knew something was very wrong. And I still just wasn't over my ex. And I didn't understand why, because I had done everything Google gave me. And then that's when I learned that thoughts created feelings. Now, I wanna give you some background in the fact that I have an industrial organizational psychology background. My dad is a psychologist. I'm surrounded by psychoanalysts and psychologists in my family, in my life, in my work. So I had never heard, really, that thoughts created feelings in such a direct way as I did with The Life Coach School and Brooke Castillo. And the moment that I heard that, I was also listening to Jen Sincero, You Are a Badass. Mikki: I love that one. Dorothy: And she talks about coaching. And so I really dove off the deep end of self-help. But it was those two things in combination with going through the get over my ex stuff for me that it all started to click in one moment. And it took one moment for me to realize the epiphanies that I needed to get over my ex. And I literally got over my ex in a moment. So that's what I talk to my brave hearts about, is that getting over your ex happens in a moment. It might feel really far away, but it genuinely happens in one moment. You will have a big aha moment that changes everything for you. Dorothy: And to me, it was a couple of different stories. But the two main things that were coming up were, I was really making the whole breakup and the way he moved on quickly mean he never loved me. Clearly, if you do that to someone, clearly, you don't love them, right? That was what was playing in my mind. That was just creating so much lingering pain that wasn't necessary. We can totally love two people equally at the same time. He probably still loved me while he was moving on to this new girl. And he definitely loved me for at some point. I mean, we were together for seven years. You don't stick around with me for that long, especially before I knew thought work. And I was reacting to all of my emotions. And I was kind of a crazy, right? Dorothy: So there's that. And then secondly, it was like the anger. I was afraid to let go of anger because I thought that it would invalidate my experience. If I let go of anger, then people would forget that it ever even happened. And it would make what he did okay. And he would no longer suffer, right? Granted... He was not suffering just because I was angry, right? But that's kind of like where my mind sat with was, if I let go of this anger, then the breakup police will never go to his house and write this breakup ticket and show the world that he did it all wrong. You know what I mean? Mikki: Yeah. Yeah. Dorothy: And so the moment that I realized all that was really, a turning point in my life because I realized everything on the Google, amazing advice, some of it's good, some of it's bad, whatever. It was all addressing breakup symptoms. None of it was really addressing the root cause. And that's when I kind of made it my life's mission to teach people how to do heartbreak differently so that we can address the root cause. So you don't see those patterns coming up in future relationships. And we can also teach our children a new way of healing heartbreak and not just addressing breakup symptoms, but really addressing breakup root causes. Does that make sense? Mikki: Totally. I mean, I'd love to hear you sort of dive deeper into that. And I also, I love your, I don't love your story meaning, but I really love that you're so open about your story because, I think that that's one thing that certainly my audience can find it familiar and they can see themselves in it, especially, maybe it's not, maybe we don't stalk on social media or maybe we're not doing those things, but how often, I know my listeners will understand that asking the children, oh, well, what's going on at your dad's house? Who was there? What was happening? Those little insidious things that might seem like, oh, I'm just trying to keep my children safe, but really, right, it's sort of keeping you in that heartbreak loop, keeping you hooked in. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about what are those root causes that you see with your brave hearts, as you call them. I want to hear more about that too. So. Dorothy: Yeah, I love it. So, I talk about two kinds of main categories of problems that I'm addressing. One of them, which is probably one that most people are familiar with, is what are you making the breakup mean about you as a person, right? What are you making the divorce or the breakup mean about you? Because there is the regular grief, loss and sadness that is a part of heartbreak, right? The version of you who thought this was going to last forever and that's welcomed and that's amazing. And we need to move through that. However, there's compound suffering placed on us when you make it mean really terrible things about yourself. Dorothy: I wasn't worth it. I wasn't worth fighting for. I'm not enough for them. Again, what I was saying was he clearly never loved me. That was the compound suffering that I was placing on myself when none of it's about us. If you are the person who has left, it has everything to do with them and their thoughts about themselves and their life. And of course, they might blame some of it on you. Absolutely. That happens all the time. But if you were to dig deeper and pull back enough layers, which you probably can't do with them, it's more of like a therapist's job or a coach's job, but it will come down to an I statement that's about them. I am afraid if I stay with this person, I can't have the life that I want. I don't know if I can do this. That kind of propels people to take the action of splitting up and ending a relationship or completing a relationship that's no longer in alignment with them. So that's one component is looking at what you're making it mean about you. Dorothy: And then the second component is really around desire and attachment. When we don't have the desire for our ex and we no longer feel attached to our ex, the breakup symptoms go away. We don't have to worry about running into our ex. We don't have to worry about being in contact with our ex. We don't have to worry about being triggered, going to an event for our kid, right? It's just like, this sounds like an odd analogy, but I work with a lot of other coaches in a lot of different ways, and we collaborate and they're different colleagues. But one of my coach colleagues works with individuals who binge eat. And so instead of trying to remove the food that they binge from their house, what we're really wanting to do is allow them to have that food in their house and just not have the desire to binge. And it's the same thing with our ex. And if you ever get to know me, you'll know I have a little bit of beef with the saying it takes time and the no contact rule. Mikki: I'm with you. Dorothy: Yeah, because I just don't... The no contact rule, again, is just very symptom-based. And if someone can do it and it's helpful for them, I'm like, yes, awesome. Mikki: Sure. Dorothy: But I would rather you be able to run into an ex or have contact, and especially for your clientele, they have to have... Mikki: You have to have contact. Yes. Dorothy: A partnership with them in some way, shape or form. So that's not going to keep you from getting over your ex. If you can reduce your desire for your ex and you can reduce attachment to them and for you having the future that you want or attachment in general through changing your thoughts, then when you're in contact with them about parenting, it's a non-issue, it's resolved. There's no problems. And that's what I'm talking about the root cause. All of the breakup symptoms fall away. And what I think is that a lot of people don't realize that desire and attachment is created through thoughts. Dorothy: And so if I sit here and I tell you, oh my gosh, Mikki, mint chocolate chip ice cream, it's my favorite. It's so good. It's ooey gooey. It melts in my mouth. The chocolatey chunks plus that mintiness, it's just so crisp and it's perfect. I just created a lot of desire for mint chocolate chip ice cream versus if I say, it's just simply sugar and milk. It's a lot less desirable. I mean, they're both equally as true, but one creates desire and one reduces desire. And so when I'm trying not to eat ice cream at night, every single night, I'm gonna tell myself the one that reduces desire so that I can tell myself the whole truth and create the goals and outcomes that I want. Does that make sense? Mikki: Totally. And I love this. I love how clearly you put that. And I think for my audience too, we talk a lot about awareness and being aware of your thinking and feeling. Like how you're thinking and how you're feeling 'cause we can't change anything until we have that awareness. Awareness is always the first step. And so I really love that you honed in right on that. And because especially for my audience, not having the person around is not an option a lot of the times. If you're co-parenting, it means both people are involved. And sadly, there are times they try not to have any contact, but that feels awful too because we wanna have our children have the best experience, even in this experience. And so for us to do that, we have to, as you said, reduce the desire, but reduce the attachment because a lot of times we feel very attached. And so I would love for you to maybe walk us through one or two ways to help show how you can get over your ex and sort of take back your freedom. Dorothy: Yeah. And I feel like, I love what you were saying there because I feel like the true thing, well, I was just talking to one of my clients recently and she was talking about indifference in terms of co-parenting, right? It's indifference. And I think a lot of times people shy away from that word because they think it sounds bad, but it's truly just feeling calm and indifferent. Like your ex shows up at a party for your kid with a new partner and you feel indifferent. That's so freeing. It allows you to like move on and live your life and do your thing and know that everything that you wanted with your ex is available to you regardless of what your ex is doing. Even the family dynamic that you think is tied to that person, it is not. Mikki: Absolutely. Absolutely. Dorothy: Right? Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: Yeah. So in terms of getting over your ex, oh my God, there's so many things I can tell you. I like don't even know where to start, but I will start here because I think it's the place that everyone needs to start is really getting clear about what it means to you to be over your ex because it's different for everyone. And you've got to get clear about where you are now and where you wanna go so that you know which way to point the GPS, okay? The solution is the same to get there, but everyone's outcome is gonna be different. And if you don't look at this now, you're gonna be working on getting over your ex and it's gonna feel like you never make any progress because you might have one slip up, but you haven't actually defined what it means to be over your ex. Dorothy: So my clients do this with me at the beginning of the Get Over Your Ex Program and we get really clear about what that means to you. So for example, sometimes people are like, I want my desire to be at a zero and my attachment to be at a zero. That's really easy to measure. We can say, okay, on a scale from zero to 10, how much do you desire your ex? 10 being I desire my ex all of the time, zero being never. And same thing with attachment. We can put it on a scale and you can measure that over time. The other thing is maybe you just want to stop constantly thinking about your ex. Maybe your ex is on your mind and you're obsessively ruminating about them all the time. Dorothy: It's like, what is that on a percentage? Or could you count it in the number of times it comes up in a day? Like I think about my ex at least 10 times a day on average and then you can be tracking that moving forward as well. And sometimes it's a feeling. So like I said earlier, a lot of my clients love indifference. They're getting to neutral indifference or free when it comes to their ex. So a lot of my clients might maybe work with an ex or like you said, co-parent with an ex. So I feel indifferent what percent of the time towards my ex. And so right now it might be really low. I barely feel indifference, but we're working on increasing that number over a period of time. So getting clear about what that is for you is really important. Dorothy: And it's oftentimes overlooked. I came from a data analytics background, so I think it came naturally to me. I used to measure learning and development programs for large organizations, and if you don't have something that you're measuring, if you don't have data, we could do all the work in the world, but how do you know you made progress? So I would be tracking some of those things just for your own sanity so that you can be like three weeks down the road and be like, Oh my God, I only thought of my ex four times today instead of 10, and because most of the time you would diminish that and say like, Oh my gosh, I'm still thinking about my ex, but you're not even clear about the... What that is the data that is. So I would say that's number one, and then number two. I'll just give you my broad strokes of getting over your ex, like I said. Dorothy: You're definitely gonna wanna be reducing desire and attachment, but the way that I do that with my clients is through four different pillars, the first pillar is the one that no one wants to do. [chuckle] It's feeling your feelings, right? Mikki: Yeah, sure. Dorothy: We've gotta learn how to sit with discomfort, and there is just so much discomfort with heartbreak, like we've talked about before, you've got the regular heartbreak of it, the devastation, the loss, the grief, but what I really work on with my clients is learning how to sit with the discomfort of having a high desire and working on sitting with that discomfort and allowing it so that we can actually question it and reduce the desire, if we don't learn how to sit with that intense desire and not make it mean anything. Dorothy: We're not gonna be able to question it, and so an example that I have is when I gave up sugar and flour at one point, there were these Hershey Kisses at my hair stylist place, right on the desk, just like two Hershey Kisses and I'm like, I do and she doesn't know I gave up sugar and flour. Right. And so my brain had so much discomfort multiple times in the two hours I was getting my hair done, but I was able to sit there with that discomfort and question my way through it and not immediately react to it, and a lot of times that's happening with your ex2 like you wanna react out of anger or rea... Dorothy: Especially when kids are involved. Right. I'm sure, you see this all the time where you're like, Oh, he did this thing with my child. That's not okay, right? Instead of learning how to sit that discomfort, not react to it and learn to reduce your desire and then make decisions from this place of indifference, from this place of reduced desire and reduced detachment, and it's very freeing. So Feeling your feelings is pillar one, pillar two is all about the relationship with yourself, getting really confident about who you are, re-learning who you are, re-learning what your loves are, what your interests are, knowing that you have your back confidence, forgiveness, trust... Dorothy: Self-trust is huge, and really looking at the stories around, what did I make this break up mean about me, and how is that not true. Right? A love... Dorothy: Lovability, enough-ness, worthiness, all of that. Dorothy: Pillar three is really working through the story that you have, and I have my clients rewrite their break-up story, because if you're anything like me, I spent so much time sharing my break up story with the most random people on the planet because I felt validated when I did it and I loved when people would be like, what an asshole. Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: I was just so upset. And again, like the break up police, I wanted the break the police, I wanted enough people to know how not cool this was, and so we have to learn how to re-write that story because every time you tell it, if it happened six months ago, but you're telling it in this present moment right now. Your body is experiencing it as if it's happening right now. Mikki: Right. Dorothy: And we're only reinforcing those feelings, so that's... Mikki: So that's that compound suffering you're talking about. Right? Dorothy: Yes. Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: Right. And so we don't need to tell... Like we don't need to take the pain out of the story, but we definitely can end it on a different note that feels like uplifting and high vibe and moving forward. And so I have a really specific formula on how to do that, so I highly recommend rewriting your break up story and also creating closure. I have a very specific closure formula, it's too much to going to right now, but definitely creating closure regardless of... It doesn't require a conversation, it doesn't require the other person to agree, you both might have different stories of what happened and learning how to create closure with that reality, I know it can be really difficult, but it's so necessary and so needed. Mikki: Yes. Yeah. Dorothy: And then the last pillar is really getting excited about your future, looking at what feels impossible to you, allowing yourself to actually want your authentic desires. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the self-help world that we're like, I have to be independent, I have to do everything myself. Someone's like this wounded feminine of, I have to do everything myself, I'm gonna do everything myself, versus being like, I actually want a partnership that's like 50-50, or I actually want to be in a partnership with someone where I get to receive and be taken care of, and allowing yourself to just want your most authentic desires, so yeah, I would say work on those four different pillars while also reducing desired attachment, which happens naturally through all four of those pillars. Mikki: Sure, yeah, and I love how you touched on those things and just to bring it back, 'cause I'm listening for my audience to... Yes, it's about your life and your desires and re-learning that, and it's also, I think so important what you said, we have to A, re-write that story, right, so that you're telling it from a place that empowers you versus continuing on creating that closure, which does not involve always the other person I mean I know personally, I've still never gotten the truth or an apology, but we're totally moved on. Right? Because I closed that chapter and I created that closure for myself, and it is possible to do that as you're saying, but I think all of that around, you can still have... Mikki: You are still a family. Even when you're divorced, you're still a family, even when you're in two houses and you can still create the family experience you want, it might not look identical, but that doesn't mean that you can't be creating the feelings and the experiences and showing up as the mom and parent, you wanna be. Even given all of this, I always just like to bring it back to that reminder that it doesn't have to be the nuclear two parents, two kids, all in one house to still be a family and for you to be cooperative and be working together, hopefully long-term. Mikki: That's the long game goal with co-parenting, you have to start here, like you said, to reduce all of those feelings and be willing... Won't feel the feelings, but be willing to reduce it so you can un-hook from all of the negativity and really move forward in a positive way. Mikki: So I love each of the things you were saying, and just wanted to kind of circle it back 'cause I can sort of hear the mom going, Well, you don't know how hard it is, is that... With just me and my kids, and I hear you and Dorothy hears you, and it's still completely possible, so I really appreciate all this that you said. Dorothy: I really love that you said that and Mikki I didn't say this in the beginning, I was thinking about saving it till the end, but I'm gonna say it now, the work you're doing in the world is so important, and I am not a mother of humans yet, but kind of what you were talking about with the family dynamic, even if it doesn't look exactly the way you thought it would. Dorothy: I'll just give you an example outside of what they're in, that I've been personally working on that might be helpful to your listeners. Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: So I had a miscarriage back in November, and it was really difficult for me. Dorothy: I wanna be a mom, so bad y'all. So all of your co-parents, even though it's hard, just know that there's someone out there being like, I wish I was you. [chuckle] Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: Right. So I am so excited to be a mom. I know it's gonna happen for me. I am letting go of the how and I'm just relaxing into it, right. But kind of what you were saying is, I can still have the feelings of being a mom, I can still have the experiences, even though I don't physically have a human baby here, and over the last six months, I've really been embracing that and loving it, and I'm finding ways to be a mom to my dog Tinkerbell who is 130 pounds now. Mikki: Tinkerbell. She has a great name. [laughter] Dorothy: We just had her second birthday, and all of the things that I saw myself doing with baby Maryland when I was pregnant, like having birthday parties and doing all... Like going to the beach with her. I literally just started doing that with my dog, I've literally just flown past crazy and I'm now into delusional I've... Literally yesterday, I was walking Tinkerbell and I was like, I just need... I need to get... Dorothy: What is that called? Why can't I think of the name, the thing where you carry your baby in. Dorothy: Like a Carrier stand... Mikki: Oh, the baby... Oh the stroller? Dorothy: Yeah. The stroller, Yes I was like I just need to get a stroller I'll put a watermelon in it, we'll get Tinkerbell ready for a baby will get me ready for a baby we'll figure it right, straight past crazy into delusional. Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: But it's been so fun learning how to be a mom, even when I don't have a child and feeling that feeling and having those experiences, and you can literally do the same kind of thing, like what you were talking about Mikki, of doing that with a family dynamic, even though it's not with your ex... Literally, what you want is, No, it doesn't require the ex you left. I promise you. Mikki: It doesn't. I agree with you 100%, and I'm extremely sorry for your loss, and I know that pain in it, it is so hard to lose a baby and a pregnancy and all of it, so I'm sorry. Dorothy: It's okay. Mikki: And I know you're gonna be an extraordinary mom to... Dorothy: I can't wait. Mikki: To think about and you're two legged. But I think you bring up a really good point, and I try never to get too far in the woo or too far in the academic range, but what you were just talking about, it is what I'm always talking about with my clients is really deciding what is the vision for your life, what is that vision that your family looks like and you still get to take the actions toward it... Right, so yes, just like you said, maybe your ex isn't there for every holiday, maybe they're not there for all of these things, but it doesn't mean that you can't still show up the way that you want to, and when you are doing that, you are creating the life that you want and you're feeling the feelings today, which is the best part. Mikki: And I love that you have talked and walked us through each of these things today, because it really brings you back to, there's hope, there's things that you can do today to really be moving the needle forward, and I love how simple and clear the messages that you offered our listeners, I could sit and chat with you all day, I feel like we need to have a second here, 'cause I have so many questions, but I do like to be respectful of time. Mikki: I'm curious if you could sort of download... If there's anything you haven't, and if you have said everything you need to say, but if there's something that you could download into the woman's brain sort of post break up, especially co-parents to help them through... What would that be? Dorothy: It would just be that indifference is available, I promise you, no matter who you are, what you're going through, where you're at in your journey, you will get to a place of indifference and you will be able to co-parent and feel free and amazing doing it. You'll see that person and you will not feel attached, you will not feel disappointed, you will not feel discouraged and defeated and devastated, you will get to a place where you see that person and it feels like indifferent, it might even feel like a good friend and you have a very good working relationship with one another that is 100% available to you, and don't let any made up rules on the internet tell you otherwise. Mikki: Yes, preach it I agree. So my last question for you is, since this is co-parenting with confidence, I always like to know, how do you define confidence? And how does it show up? Dorothy: That's a really great question. So my favorite kind of confidence, I feel like there's different flavors of confidence, my favorite flavor is calm confidence. Mikki: Yeah. Dorothy: It's that like edgy, just born into feeling of confidence, it feels open, it feels clear, it feels secure and grounded and solid. I feel like that to me is confidence is like when I'm in that calm confidence, things feel clear and sufficient and abundant. Does that make sense? Mikki: 100% and that is the strongest energy in the world, they have measured it, and so a lot of people think that sort of loud or anger or fighting is the strongest energy, that's actually the weakest energy, what you just described. Calm, grounded, present, that kind of confidence is because you are truly resonating at the deepest, strongest energy field. So I love that you said that. Dorothy: Good doesn't it? Mikki: It doesn't feel so good. So good, thank you so much, Dorothy, for being here and tell us how we can find you and all the places... How should they get to know more about you? Dorothy: Yeah, absolutely, thank you so much. I do wanna just first say, I appreciate you, Mikki, for bringing me on and I appreciate your listeners for listening in and thank you so much for your time. Your time is valuable. It's not something that you can get back. So I always wanna make sure that I'm providing the value that is equivalent to the time you spent listening to me, so thank you so much, so you can find me over at the How To Get Over Your ex podcast on Spotify or iTunes. Those are very short, powerful to the point, impactful episodes, about 10-20 minutes long that give you very clear next steps about specific break-up experiences or their interviews with people who have gone through things that might feel similar that you can listen to and really resonate with and feel connected to, you can also find me at @breakupcoachdorothy on Instagram. I don't hang out there as often as I used to, but I am there and there is content there, and then if you're looking to work with me, you can go to my website @dorothyabjohnson.com. Mikki: Awesome, Well, the podcast is amazing, and I do love the Instagram content you put there, so definitely check her out, so... Dorothy: Thank you. Mikki: Thank you Dorothy, so much for being here today. Dorothy: Thank you so much I appreciate you. Mikki: Oh and one more thing the legal stuff this podcast is solely intended for informational and educational purposes only it is not intended to be a substitute for any medical advice please consult your physician or your qualified medical professional for personalized medical advice. Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence if you want more information or resources from this podcast visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com I'll see you next week.