Ep #134: Collaborative Solutions with Meg Gluckman

Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach, with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother. And I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well get ready and let's dive into today's episode.

Mikki: Hi friends, and welcome back to the podcast. Before we dive into today's interview, which I'm very excited to share with you, I wanted to just take a moment to say thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you for supporting this podcast. I really want to continue to make sure that all of the conversations that we have here and all the episodes that I create for you are really relevant in answering the questions that you have and that are supportive for you. So, with that in mind, if you have any questions that are on your mind or you have a topic that you really wanna hear more about, I would love to know about that. So I've made it super easy. In the show notes, there's a link where you can click on it and leave me a voicemail. You can tell me what's on your mind and what questions you have, and then I will use those to create future episodes.

Mikki: And while you're at it, if you don't mind just taking a moment wherever you listen to this podcast, whether it's Apple or Spotify, if you could rate and review the show, I would be so appreciative. And make sure you follow the show there too, so you don't miss any of the amazing upcoming interviews and conversations and episodes that I have for you. Speaking of, today we have a really wonderful guest who I can't wait to share with you, coach Meg Gluckman. Meg coaches parents navigating divorce. She specializes in helping parents one-on-one, prepare and feel grounded for their divorce meetings, how to communicate with their co-parent without drama and make decisions for the career and lifestyle they truly want after divorce.

Mikki: She co-parents her two kiddos on an island north of Seattle and loves doing cold plunges in Puget Sound. Hoo, I love that. So today Meg and I are really talking about different ways to divorce. Oftentimes we think that there's only one or maybe two ways, but there's actually a whole spectrum. And Meg walks us through that, and helps walk us through all of the different options and ways that we can navigate conflict even after divorce. So without further ado, let's dive into this conversation. I hope that it is as informative for you as it was for me.

Mikki: Welcome back friends. I'm really excited to have Meg Gluckman here with me today. Thank you Meg, for coming.

Meg: I'm so happy to be here, Mikki. This is gonna be awesome.

Mikki: It's gonna be awesome. We are talking about divorce [laughter]

Meg: Woo-hoo [laughter]

Mikki: Exactly. So, Meg and I connected and we had a conversation and I thought it would be so important to have this conversation here. Meg, I'm gonna let you describe it. But she is very involved and knowledgeable about the collaborative divorce process. And one thing that's really important to me here in this podcast is to be able to have conversations that open the door to maybe new solutions, new ideas, new ways that we can come at this issue of divorce, how we can solve it in a way that actually builds families up versus tearing them down. And so that's why I'm so excited to have you today to really start to have this conversation. So, but first, before we dive into all that, I'd love to hear a little bit about you, how you got here. Tell us that.

Meg: Yeah, sure. So, I have been coaching parents that are going through divorce or dealing with co-parenting issues for the last couple years. It was my COVID pivot, I like to tell folks. When 2020 hit, I was running a retreat center out on Whidbey Island, which is just north of Seattle, loving it. And as soon as March hit, we stopped doing any programs, right? And just slowly had to cancel things. And in the back of my mind I was always thinking about becoming a coach and was really intrigued by the idea. And it was kind of like, Well the universe is telling you things have gotta change. So, let's give it a try. And so while my kids were home, doing homeschooling or Zoom schooling as we called it, I got certified as a coach and started coaching folks and mostly was doing life coaching and small business coaching. But I kept attracting folks who were going through their divorce.

Meg: And I recognized that it was because I had gone through my divorce just a few years earlier and I was really comfortable talking to them about what their options were and how to navigate this transition from being spouses to being co-parents. And I just kept evolving till I landed here and I'm thrilled to be helping folks navigate all of this.

Mikki: Aw, well I'm glad you are doing that and you're amazing and I love the energy that you bring to it. So let's dive in and talk about that. Right? Because I think you and I both have similar-ish experiences. Where would you like to start in this conversation? I'm just gonna throw it out there. Like what do you feel like is most useful?

Meg: My passion right now is telling more and more people about the option of collaborative divorce.

Mikki: Yes.

Meg: So I would love to jump on that. That's like my little soapbox right now. [laughter]

Mikki: Well soapbox away, 'cause when we spoke, this was really intriguing and something that I don't know a lot about. And I'm guessing that I'm representative of a lot of people. So tell me what is collaborative divorce?

Meg: Yeah. And I'll say that I didn't know about it until two years ago, probably. And it is still a newer thing and it's really State by State how well established it is right now. So I'm in Washington State, we were one of the States that was kind of on the forefront of getting this well established. But it's really only been 20 years since people have been really doing it. And it is an option that keeps folks out of court, essentially. I mean, that's the bottom line of it. I think most of us come to divorce either having stories of relatives or friends that went through divorce and what their experience was like or what we see on TV. Right? And TV often portrays this very adversarial court-involved process. Right? Very conflict-ridden. And the idea with collaborative divorce is how can we create a different option, where we're not just focused on dissolving a partnership, but in really helping this family transition into this next new thing. Right?

Meg: And though anybody can use it. So if you have partners who don't have kids, they can definitely use this process as well, it is extremely helpful if you do have kids because it really is about transitioning from spouses to co-parents. Let me give you the context, I'll give you the range of options that are actually available for folks. And I'm gonna use Washington State 'cause that's what I know well.

Mikki: Perfect. Yeah.

Meg: There are... In different States they use just slightly different language around these different options. But if you were to Google collaborative in Illinois, you'll get to whatever your language is for your state. Okay. So first off, on the end of the scale, where parties have the most control over the outcome is what we call the kitchen table approach. And it literally is both parties sitting down at the kitchen table with notebooks, right?

Meg: And deciding how they're gonna divide up things, deciding how they're going to divide up time for a parenting plan. They are working together in one room. And a lot of folks, probably the majority of divorces actually start this way. That there is some sort of communication just between the two parties. Now, outside of that kitchen table space, they both might consult with their own attorneys and get advice, but they're not bringing the attorneys necessarily right into the decision-making. They might lean on one of those attorneys to draft up the paperwork. But then they're probably submitting it themselves to the court or filing it. They're not actually necessarily going to court. And generally they're in agreement. They easily reach agreement with a lot of things. And so that's what we call kitchen table.

Meg: Then we go one step up, which is mediation. And that's where you're hiring a mediator to help you work through the issues. Now, you might not have a ton of issues to work through. Maybe you started at the kitchen table and you all were able to figure out the whole parenting plan together. You got it worked out how you're gonna alternate holidays and how you're gonna do handoffs, but dividing up assets or dividing up retirement or who's gonna keep the house. Those are still issues that you need support and help with. And so you have a third party trained mediator that's gonna help facilitate that conversation.

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: And again, outside of that space, you might still be consulting with your lawyers, getting advice. You might also consult with like a child specialist or a financial specialist if there's particular questions. But generally you're working altogether, right? It's like a team approach. Then if we go one more step up and I should pause and say I have a great diagram to share with folks. So I know everybody's holding all these different options in their mind, but I have a great diagram that's on my website so that folks can see exactly how you can step through all this and I can share it with you as well.

Meg: So the next step up from mediation is called collaborative mediation. And this is where we start getting into my juicy passion here. So, collaborative mediation is where you actually have your attorneys in the room. So you still have a mediator, you've got the two spouses and you bring your attorneys into the room. But what's different about this than our adversarial approach, which we will get to further down the spectrum, is that you sign a participation agreement as part of this collaborative mediation. And in that agreement you waive some of your client-lawyer legal privileges. Right? So we know that the confidentiality that we typically associate with a lawyer-client privilege, but in the collaborative mediation, you waive some of that, so that both lawyers can work as a team to help the parties get to the outcome that you want.

Meg: A second part of that participation agreement is that everyone agrees that they will not go to court. So if this mediation, this collaborative mediation fails, you actually have to fire those attorneys and hire totally new ones to go to court. So, everyone is incentivized to work really well together and to come to solutions.

Mikki: Got it. All right.

Meg: And still, even with the attorneys now in the room, you might still reach out and they will often recommend this, depending on what the specifics of the circumstance are, that you reach out to a child specialist, if there's something particular you know about a kiddo that needs extra support or a financial specialist, who can also help with some things that might be extra complicated. And often they will also refer their clients to therapists for extra support. Or somebody like me, which I work as a co-parenting and divorce coach for individual parents.

Meg: So I'm not working with both parents at once. I'm just providing extra support to one parent. And so sometimes they'll be referred to me to just have some extra support. Am I making sense so far?

Mikki: Absolutely, yeah.

Meg: It's working?

[laughter]

Mikki: Yep. This is working.

Meg: It's a lot of pieces that are moving.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: So a lot of folks can just come up to this collaborative mediation level and get it all done. Right? And I wanna emphasize that at this point, when you have the support of a mediator and you have the support of your collaborative attorneys in the room, you don't have to be best friends [laughter] at this point. Right? You and your spouse don't have to be best friends. You don't have to agree on almost anything coming into the process. You have to just be willing to work this out outside of court to like lean on these professionals. Right?

Meg: And I think it's really important to say it's not that this collaborative mediation, this level of support is about not having any conflict, no. The professionals are there because there is conflict. But they are there to support you in creating a sustainable, durable plan for your family going forward.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: Okay. So one more level up then. So more support is, you have both parties and you have their collaborative attorneys and you actually bring in a divorce coach in place of the mediator and you bring in a financial neutral into the room. So now there's six of you in the room all the time.

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: I will say sometimes the financial neutral isn't in all the meetings 'cause they don't need to be. But you have a six-person team that we call the professional team. And this is the model that is most often known as the collaborative divorce model.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: You have a divorce coach, two attorneys and a financial neutral. And the divorce coach in this situation is usually a trained mental health professional and they are there to help facilitate the meeting, but also to help craft the parenting plan. And so often when there's kind of a more complicated parenting plan or there's just more conflict, it's really helpful to have somebody who's super skilled around creating those plans. And again, you've signed a participation agreement. So everybody in there is there to support you in reaching resolution without going to court.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: And it's, it's really the deluxe version. It's like, I don't know, it's the Lexus of the collaborative divorce process.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: And it's the end of the road on the collaborative process. Right?

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: So you have this full team that's supporting you. If that isn't able to work, then we're moving into more of a litigious adversarial model.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: Okay. And I wanna just walk through what that looks like too, so that folks know what the difference is.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: Any questions or anything I should...

Mikki: No, not yet.

Meg: Or pause on? No. Okay. [laughter] Great. So let's say you've worked all the way through this process and maybe you've figured out 50% of the decisions that need to be made. That's great. Right? Maybe you figured out 98% and there's just one thing left. Or maybe you figured out zero. Whatever it is, if there's anything remaining, and it is kind of decided as a team that we can't figure it out in the collaborative process, then the next step up would be to move to attorney settlement. And so this is where you're no longer sitting in the same room. Right?

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: You have your attorney, which now is a new attorney if you've left the collaborative process. Right? You've hired a litigious attorney. You are sitting with your attorney, your ex is sitting with their attorney, and the attorneys are talking to each other to figure out whatever needs to be figured out.

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: But you are no longer communicating with your spouse. And this is often kind of what we think of from TV I think most often, right? Like the attorneys are sitting across the table or they're sending documents back and forth, but the individuals are kind of like out of the picture a little bit, the individual clients. So if that doesn't work and there's still issues, then the next step up would be a settlement conference, which sometimes is referred to as mediation, but it's not really the same kind of mediation. Like everybody's not in the room. But you have a third party who typically is like a retired judge. They probably were trained as a mediator as well, but they are going between two rooms to try to reach agreement on something.

Mikki: Okay.

Meg: So, and it might be that there's one thing left that you can't agree on and that's why you're doing this. But you and your attorney are in one room. If you have any experts, like a financial expert or a child specialist, you're gonna hire your own and your spouse is gonna hire their own. So it's more expensive. 'cause there's more, there's kind of like two separate teams completely. Right? And the settlement conference mediator is going between the two different rooms. If still that doesn't work, then the next step up is to go to court.

Mikki: Got it. Okay.

Meg: And that's the last resort, right? So it's the last resort, because you're essentially putting out your requests, you're making your case in a written form and a judge is getting to decide what's gonna happen.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: Right. And that, I think, I mean, that's what scares folks, right? Like, that's what their fear is. What is a court going to decide? And the reason I like to educate folks on all these other options is to say, there's a lot of space between where you are right now and court.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: Right? Like, we don't have to worry about that right now. Let's see how much we can work out before we even get there.

Mikki: Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much for going through each of those because I think it is so helpful to sort of, just like you said, understand the options because a lot of times we don't know the options.

Meg: There's no way that we know these options. It is just not well-shared information out there.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: I think everybody that comes to a divorce is starting from ground zero. Like, there's no reason we should know all of this stuff...

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: Beforehand. Right?

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: And there's so many strong emotions at play, right? We have so much fear. We have financial fear. We have fear about what's gonna happen to our kids. We have fear about, like, where are we gonna live? What's the future really look like for us? And then we don't have a clear idea of, like, what this process is or where we can start. So my hope and dream is, like, this information gets out there more widely so that everybody knows that there's more than one option.

Mikki: Yeah. 'cause I think even if you're sitting here listening to this podcast and you're like, well, this isn't relevant to me 'cause I'm already divorced and we already got to the adversarial part and I didn't know, right? Yes. I'm glad you walked us through that because there's so many options and people can start to educate themselves on what could work for them. And I want to talk about what happens after, right? Because a lot of my listeners, a lot of the audience here, right? They're already in this co-parenting role and maybe they've already been in an adversarial place for a while, right? And they're seeking help to get out of that place. And so I'd love to speak to that too.

Meg: Yeah. So what I love about this is you have all of these same options available to you after divorce, right? You can think of them as conflict resolution options, right? You might start at the kitchen table, right? Okay. We need to come up with a joint policy around the kids driving or the kids owning a car or, kid travel during the summer. Like we have to decide this thing. Is this something that the two of us can just sit down and decide together? Okay. Maybe we can, depending on what the issue is. Maybe we can't, right? Okay. So if we can't, our jump doesn't have to be to our attorneys, right? Our jump should just be from kitchen table to maybe a mediator or a co-parenting coach, right? Because maybe it's not really a legal issue. Maybe it's really just, okay, we need someone to help us think through and work out the pieces to this, right? So I think in a lot of situations, it could be either like it really could be either. Mediators don't have to just do legal issues.

Meg: They are really about conflict resolution. So you can go to them about who should pay for the insurance for the kid's car, right? Like you can do whatever. So, and then if that doesn't work, knowing that you can actually still hire collaborative attorneys to help you work through some of this stuff too, especially if maybe there is something that is gonna change on the parenting plan. Maybe there's, oftentimes folks will come back to mediation or collaborative mediation when somebody gets a new job and it really changes the parenting schedule or somebody's gonna move, right? These are things that maybe we got divorced 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and we didn't expect this to happen at all. This is new stuff. We can use all these same options as are available to go through the divorce process to use them afterwards to resolve any conflict.

Mikki: That's such a great point to make because I think oftentimes you don't wanna be in court and you wanna avoid everything to get there. And so I know a lot of the co-parents that I talk to, it's like they sort of give in, right? They maybe don't want to fight the battle or try to ignore it because they don't wanna end up there. So I love that you're shedding light on, right? There are so many options. Even when we can't find resolution, how do we create the team that's able to support us in that?

Meg: Yeah, yeah. And just think about the feeling too of if you got to a place where you're like, okay, this is an issue we have to figure out. I really wanna make sure we don't go to court over it. And we can actually use this collaborative practice model where everybody signs a participation agreement that says we're not going to court. And it's just taken off the table, right? Nobody can threaten that we're gonna go to court. Nobody can really stall it out. We are committed to coming to a solution. It can turn the dial down on high emotions and anxiety and fear so much to say, we have a team supporting us that's gonna help us figure this out outside of court.

Mikki: Yeah, I love that. It's just shifting that mindset, right? Shifting the playing field from, I know I talked so much about getting on the same page. We've got to be on the same side of the field. We're a team, right? Whether you're married or not, you are a team and your children are, right? What you are a team for. And so how can you keep yourself in that mindset, in that perspective of looking out at the playing field together versus being on opposite teams? 'Cause you're just not. And so I love that approach to sort of shift that mindset. You talk about something that I love and I think I'm alluding to, but how do we start to shift from our spouse, right? They're no longer our spouse into this co-parent role because this is a big one. So I'd love to hear your perspective on it.

Meg: Yeah. I think your metaphor of the field is a really great one, that we might have ended our marriage being on opposite sides of the field, but in order to continue our co-parenting relationship, which is going to last for the entirety of our lives. Sometimes people are like, well, I only have to co-parent till my kids are 18. And I'm like...

Mikki: No you don't.

Meg: That's not gonna work, right? Are you gonna wanna be at graduations? Are you gonna wanna be around the grandbabies when they arrive? Are you gonna wanna support your kids when they're struggling when they're 30? Like, yes, you're gonna wanna be in your kids' lives. As long as you want to be in your kids' lives, you're gonna be in your co-parent's life. So this is a lifelong relationship. So the transition from spouse mind to co-parent mind hopefully happens as we're going through divorce and in the year or two after that, we can fully shift over. But of course, there's a lot of body memory of that spouse relationship. What I talk to folks about is when they get caught in a strong emotion, they might get activated by some text that comes through from their co-parent to ask themselves, am I in my spouse mind? Am I thinking about them as a spouse and that history that we have as a spouse? Or am I thinking about it from a co-parent angle?

Meg: And we just have to ask ourselves that question over and over and over again. It's a practice. We're building this muscle or we have the analogy of a path going through a field. And we walked that path so many times in that spouse relationship that we had all these thoughts about them and what they should do, who they should be, how they treat us. We walked it and we walked it and we walked it, right? So it was well-worn in that field. And we're having to leave that path and let it just grow over, but it takes time to let it grow over, right? And we're just practicing like constantly switching. Okay, now we're just co-parents. How do we relate in order to just do what we need to do for our kids?

Mikki: Yeah. And I think one extra piece I wanna add on to that, it's also remembering who is it for because so many times I think it's really hard to let go of all the things they did, right? And it's like, then we're like, well, we can't give into this because then they're gonna win. I can't. I mean, how many times have we heard, well, I don't want them to win, but really asking, win what?

Meg: Yeah.

Mikki: Like who's winning you and your ego or your child? And when we can really keep putting it back and keeping the children center versus letting them become the pawn in a game that is being pulled back and forth, you don't want them in the middle. And so I think part of getting out of that, it's like going from spouse to co-parent still leaves it in ourselves. And a lot of the time it takes time and effort and all of the conscious energy to heal. And sometimes in the middle of that messy middle, like we gotta focus. And for me, reminding myself and reminding my clients that really keeping your kids center. So even if you don't do it for you, right? Even if it's too hard to like let them win, can you do it for your child? And really remembering to keep them center because, sometimes it's just the pull of going back to that well-worn path, right. That you mentioned. It's just, it's so enticing. It's so easy.

Meg: Well, it's so strong. Yeah. And I'm sure that you do this as well, because we have a lot of similarities in how we coach, but I often am curious for my client about what they need, what they need in this moment, right. Because often what happens is they get really upset because they make a request and the co-parent says no. And they just kind of get stuck in that space, like just really strong emotion reacting. Well, why do they get to say no? Right. Like that's something that they'll say. And, we'll check in and I'll be like, well, do you get to say no? That's what's really going on is like this other person is just getting to say no whenever they want, but you don't feel like you can say no whenever you want. Right. So how do we get you what you need? I've also seen, and I actually remember this from my early days being divorced, like just being so upset that they were having so much fun over there.

Mikki: Oh, yeah.

Meg: My co-parent was dating and they just looked like their life was awesome. Right. And it just ate me up. And what I realized was like, oh, what do I want? Right. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not like, they get all the fun. And so I don't get any like, oh, well, what do I want in my life?

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: What do I need? Oh, I want some more fun. That's what I want.

Mikki: Yeah.

Meg: So sometimes when I think we get stuck in that spouse mind, it's because there's something there that we want, that we haven't fully acknowledged that we want it yet. Like we're not fully conscious of it. And like, as soon as we can find that we can kind of release that hold.

Mikki: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why, but it just came to me. I think it was Brene Brown that said expectations are just resentments waiting to happen. And it's like that person is standing in between you and what you want. Right. And that expectation, right. All of those things, that's what starts to build up resentment.

Meg: I think that's also where we start building this skill of, okay, how else can I get what I want then? Right. Instead of thinking that the Ex supplying what you need is like a dead-end street. We start getting super creative about how else can I get what I want.

Mikki: Yeah. Love that. Love that. Yeah. It just, again, it's like opening up, opening up to, like you said, at the beginning of this, there's so many options. And when we lock ourselves into that, it's this way or that way. Right. We sort of lose sight of all of the juiciness in between. And so I love that you brought that full circle because the brain doesn't want to go into the black and white. That's just how we're sort of wired. And we have to build the skill of being able to look at what are the options. And it starts by just asking, what is it that I need? What do I want here? How do I want to feel? Right. And then starting to figure out the ways to walk towards that, maybe not get it, but just go in that direction.

Meg: Yeah.

Mikki: Because that ultimately is going to take you in a different place. So, well, I have loved this conversation. I feel like we could go so many directions, but I really love that you have walked us through so many really resourceful and useful options. Right. Because the worst is the hard process. And the more that we can make it our own and feel invested and feel cared for in it. And to me, that's what the collaborative process really is speaking to, is allowing you to be seen and heard and have a felt sense of figuring this out in a way that is going to support your life going forward. And so I'm really glad that you brought that to us today. Thank you so much, Meg.

Meg: It's my pleasure. And my hope is just that folks really feel like they can get abundant support through this process without having to go to court. Like it really is possible to, like you said, like feel seen and feel heard and feel really abundantly supported going through this.

Mikki: Oh, I love that. So tell people where they can find you. And I think you have a little gift for them.

Meg: Yeah. So best place is just to go to my website. It's my name, meggluckman.com. And on there, I have a resource that's called Five Questions to help you prepare for any divorce or co-parenting meeting. It's a very long title...

Mikki: I love it.

Meg: But just five questions. And these are the questions that I have each of my clients run through before any meeting so that they can go in no matter how the other person shows up and feel grounded and come away feeling like it was a successful meeting because we can't control how the other person shows up. We can't control what they say during the meeting, but we have so much ability to decide how we want to feel during it and how we want to feel afterwards. So that's what those questions are for.

Mikki: Awesome. I'll put everything in the show notes. Meg, thank you so much for the work you're doing, for all the goodness and the love and light that you're putting in the world. I really appreciate it. And thank you for coming today.

Meg: Thank you so much, Mikki. This was great.

Mikki: Oh, and one more thing, the legal stuff. This podcast is solely intended for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for any medical advice. Please consult your physician or a qualified medical professional for personalized medical advice.

Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-Parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit coparentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.