Ep #52: An Interview with Luke Shilling

Mikki: I'm Mikki Gardner, and this is the Co-parenting with Confidence Podcast episode number 52, A Conversation with Luke Shilling. [music] Mikki: Welcome to Co-parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother, and I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready and let's dive into today's episode. [music] Mikki: Welcome back, friend, and thank you for joining me today. Listen, I know you have a gazillion things to do, and I know there are so many great podcasts, and I'm just really grateful that you're here with me, that you're listening and that you're finding value. If there's ever anything you wanna hear about, please tell me. I keep a file and all of the amazing questions that you guys have, so please just email me at [email protected], and let me know what's on your mind. And if you're new here, welcome. I'm so glad you found us, and I hope that you love this episode as well as the others. Have you ever had one of those conversations with a friend and later you wish you could go back and listen to it or share it with somebody else that you know would really get value? Well, that's what today is all about. Recently, I was connected with a really awesome guy, Luke Shilling. He's a relationship and infidelity coach for men. Luke and I were chatting about co-parenting, divorce, especially after infidelity, and I thought, you know what? This would be a really great conversation and to have a male perspective on the topic. Luke offers such a unique perspective and experience on healing from infidelity, how to move forward, and what that even looks like. Mikki: So Luke is a 40-something father of two who escaped the nine-to-five and is really living his dream as a life, relationship and infidelity coach. He's based in the UK, and he can often be found running in the countryside, volunteering, drinking coffee, or engrossed in Excel spreadsheet. Luke and I do not have that in common, [laughter] but I applaud his ability. So now he's really taking that life experience, the hardships and the tragedies and infidelity, and he's combining that with his coaching skills to help men through this. And I love that he's really devoted to helping men. And so why are we having him on this podcast? Well, there are some guys out there listening, but also I think it's really useful for us to hear from the male perspective. And so without much further ado, let's take a listen. Okay, I am so excited because today we have Luke Shilling on the podcast, and he is a relationship and infidelity coach for men. And moms, you might be wondering, Mikki, what are you doing here? But what I'm doing is giving us some perspective. A different perspective that maybe we don't always get. And by having a man here to share with us, I'm just super, super excited about this conversation. So, Luke, thank you for coming. Luke: Thank you. Thank you for having me, and it's such a joy to be able to have this conversation and hopefully be of some use to your listeners. Mikki: Absolutely. Well, I'm excited to dive in. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? What do you do? How'd you get here? The things that we need to know, so to speak. Luke: Absolutely, yeah. This kind of question, there's always like two answers. There's the formal answer that we expect when we meet somebody for the first time, it's like, "Well, who are you? What do you do?" And I suppose formally, I'm a 41-year-old divorced father of two. And I spend much of my time recreationally running. And as you've already established and announced that I'm a relationship and infidelity coach, so that's who I am on a day-to-day basis. But on a more personal level, I'm a caring, loving, empathic Jack of all trades. And I've spent my whole life not really knowing exactly what it is I want to do. And right from a very young age, this uncertainty about where life goes and the expectations that are put on us by society and our parents and the people around us. And I've always had this really wide range of interests, and I've always had this natural ability to communicate with people of all levels. And I've always been really fascinated in why people do the things they do. Luke: So despite the varying career path that I took through late teens, early 20s, and to some extent, a good chunk of my 30s, of which that was a very rewarding journey. And I did a variety of things and many, many roles, predominantly managerial, but usually working with groups of people, teams, training, that kind of stuff. So like an element of coaching throughout all of the roles that I've done. I've been a business owner both in like a brick and motor sense, in the hospitality industry, but also in the online sense in e-commerce back in the early 2000s. However, more recently, as you know, I've become a coach, a life coach, and I specialize in... Initially, I was doing pretty much exactly what you are. I labeled it split parent relationship coaching, but essentially co-parent coaches. And this all came about because I myself was in that situation. I had been married for about eight years, just under. And then I got the news that my wife had been having an affair, and that long story short, was ultimately ended in divorce, in separation and divorce. And it left me in this co-parenting environment, which was, and still is to an extent a challenge to navigate. And that there's always things that come up that are slightly different, even in a good co-parenting relationship. Slightly different to what you might expect when you're both living together in that normal two-partner dynamic. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: How's my journeys progressed? Of course, with infidelity being a part of my story as well and seeing the pain and discomfort that many people are experiencing in the world, both men and women, of course, on both sides on both the betrayed and those who have been unfaithful. There's a huge need for help and support through that, and I believe that... Or, I believed that I was perfectly positioned to do so. So that's exactly what I do now. Mikki: I love that. So what do you find is that big struggle? What is the biggest struggle specifically because like you said, co-parenting, it's unique to everyone and in the best of situations, it's challenging. So we have that, that we know, but you layer on infidelity and it layers on some complexity, in my opinion. And I'm curious what you see as the struggle with infidelity and then the after. Luke: Yeah, exactly. And, you are right. It does layer on a level of complexity, and both in any... Excuse me. Any just two-parent co-parenting relationship, there are nuances and like you say, every situation is different. And it's exactly the same with infidelity and after an affair where each circumstance, each situation is slightly unique to that individual couple. Now, in terms of what is the biggest struggle, of course, that's always a complex question because there's so many struggles and almost by definition the nuance element that we've just discussed really highlights that. However, as with any relationship, trust is probably the foundation of which many people form all of their relationships in life, and particularly those who they've chosen to have children with. And the trust that you have in your partner is something that you choose. It's something that builds up over time. It's a belief, if you like. It's something that you stowed, you've told yourself that you can rely on this person and you commit to them. And when you choose to have children together, you are imparting, you are almost incorporating this joint trust from both sides to create and look after what is arguably the most wonderful experience that a human can have, and that is to be a parent. So when infidelity comes along, of course, the first thing that is damaged is that trust. That trust in that other person. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: And although the initial breaking trust is purely around you and your partner, the relationship itself, obviously that trickles into every facet and parenting is no different. So of course, when you're then living in different locations and the children are being transferred from one place to the other depending on the individual dynamics, you're then having to trust your partner to do all of the things that you would like them to do. To not get into the situation where the children can be used as pawns and used as some kind of, I don't know, like loyalty conflict. That really difficult place that many people face when they are really not getting on well with their partner, with their ex partner. And of course the children are bang in the middle and they're just being pass the parcel. Mikki: Excuse me, I'm so sorry. [laughter] We'll edit that. Sharon, edit that out please. [laughter] Luke: No problem. Mikki: Great. Sorry she can, I'm so sorry. Luke: It's alright. So yeah. I think when that level of trust is peeled away and you are relying on the other person to do the things that you want them to do or expect them to do, and they're doing the same for you when you are actually probably in a pretty nasty place yourselves, that can be very, very difficult. And trying to keep that separate from the children is a priority that I think everybody should take over and above all. Your adult problems are one thing, and of course as adults, we take responsibility for our actions and that works on both sides of the discussion. Even where there is one person who's been betrayed and the other person who's been unfaithful, there is still an element of responsibility that we have as human beings and certainly as parents. Luke: And to take those things into consideration moving forward is in some ways, if you're going to go through infidelity, if that's something that's happened to you... In some ways, having children is much better because it forces you to choose to repair the relationship in a way whether you choose to stay or leave. It forces you to choose to repair the relationship in a way that initially is driven by the desire to do the best thing for the kids, which gets you past, it helps you work through that real painful, angry, resentful, bitter stage that of course so many people go through. Mikki: Yeah. I love that you actually brought that up because it is... I always find sometimes we can make a promise to our children that we can't keep to ourselves. Whether it's showing up on something, doing something that we don't wanna do, but if it's for our kids, we're willing to do it. And so... Luke: Absolutely. Mikki: I love that you're... It's almost helpful to be able, I think is what you're saying, to be able to focus on them, what's best for them and allow time and space for all those feelings to work through and to process because it is overwhelming when you're in it. The anger, the betrayal. It is consuming. Luke: Exactly. And of course, the easiest thing to do for most people when they separate from any relationship, particularly if it's been a painful ending, regardless of whether infidelity is the case or not, or whether, however the relationship comes to an end. It's almost like you can revert back to how you may have dealt with it when you were a teenager and that's, burn all the photos, throw all the clothes out the window, [chuckle] delete all the social media profiles. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: You can almost basically turn a blind eye. You can compartmentalize that, you can shut it in a door and you can choose never to process it. That won't serve you well, unfortunately. That will always come back in some way and show up in your future relationships. But when you've got the kids, it's like... It is, it's like that fuel, it's that something just to get you to that stage where some kind of recovery or process regardless of what your individual situation looks like. I work with people who obviously choose to stay and they have that option. And then, of course, there's those who maybe the option isn't to stay because the affair partner's remained in the environment and then you're faced, of course, with a whole new set of choices. Mikki: Yeah. So I wanna step back a second to something you said because I... The trust is, it's the first thing to go and it really is a belief, as you said. Oftentimes, we say, well we made the commitment, we took the vows, trust was supposed to be inherent, and it's not. It's an active belief on both sides. It's an action, it's all of the things that we do. But, I'm curious because what I always find the biggest struggle, it's very easy to point to, "I can't trust him or her anymore because of their actions." Luke: Yes. Mikki: That betrayal. And like you said, then it filters into the co-parenting. "Well, how can I trust him to take care of my children when I couldn't trust him in the marriage?" So there's that component. And I'm curious how you help people navigate that. Luke: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Mikki: And then I have a second question. Luke: Yeah. Go on, just say it. Just in case it's incorporated. [laughter] Mikki: Yeah. Well, for me, I think the actual real trust breakdown is with ourselves. Luke: Yes. Mikki: When we are the one who has been the one who was betrayed, it's very easy to point the finger at the other person saying they did this, but really the broken trust is with ourselves. Luke: Exactly. And I think... Mikki: So I'm curious, your perspective there. Luke: Yeah. And I'm glad you added that second bit on because that's probably where I would have gone anyway. Trust is something that only we can experience. It's not something that the other person doesn't have this bucket that they're depositing into that you can then drink or consume in some way. It doesn't go from them into you in any kind of physical sense. It's purely your belief that that person will act or show up in a certain way and not a lot more than that in all honesty. And then of course, when we commit to any kind of long-term relationship by choice, then we are trusting our own judgment about that person and therefore they in some way become part of us and at least that's how it's perceived. So to have somebody act in a way that's not congruent with your own expectations is very challenging for yourself, very, very challenging. And I remember thinking that I could have predicted my partner's behavior pretty accurately, like in almost every facet of life. And despite being a completely unique human individual, and that was one of the things that I loved about her, that I still felt an element of reliability and an element of... I suppose your podcast has the word confidence in it. There's like a confidence in how she behaved and showed up. Mikki: Yeah. So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that you had a sense prior to the betrayal that you knew exactly what she would do, that you knew her so well. Is that what you're saying? Luke: Yeah. That's what I suspected. I thought I knew her. And that's kind of the point. I thought I knew her very well. So when this betrayal happened, it was very unexpected. It was like it hit me between the eyes. It's like I didn't see it coming. And I don't necessarily mean the final part, it was the build-up over what turned out to be potentially a few years that this disconnection that had started to form that I had not really noticed. And for somebody who thrives on being able to read other people and understand other people, and have this fascination with how people work and why they think the things they do, that was pretty tough to take. I'm not gonna lie. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: So I then doubted myself. And this is where the trust in myself came in because up until that point, I trusted my judgment, and then all of a sudden my judgment has been thrown into question. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: And it's like, do I trust myself anymore? Do I trust my judgment, not just with her, but with many people in my life. Mikki: Sure. Luke: And that starts to filter and bleed into all other aspects which is very... I don't know the best word for it. It's a very real experience. And of course, everything that we... Everything that we experience in our own minds is real to us. Of course, we live our lives through our own individual filters. And I will never be able to know exactly what it's like to live through and wear the filter of Mikki Gardner, and you will never know exactly what it's like to experience the filter of Luke Shilling. And I suppose up until that point, I thought I did have a pretty good idea of what it was like to live through the filter of my now ex-wife and... Yeah, that was quite the learning curve let's say. And then of course, once that then goes into this point of, "Well okay, if that's what I thought about that part of her, then all the things about all the other aspects of her personality, do I have to question all those? Can I trust her as a co-parent?" As I work through this if I'm confident that that is the case, I can. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: But these questions came up and you doubt everything. Mikki: Yeah, and I really appreciate your vulnerability and honesty here to talk about that because you know it... To me, it's... That moment, and yes, sometimes it is a moment, sometimes it's a build-up, but once you realize everything you thought was there, right? Luke: Yes. Mikki: Is no longer there, it's like a shattering of everything. Luke: Completely. Mikki: And you're left with the pieces, and those were the pieces that have to be put back together or let go of, reorganized, but it is a painful process. And I think that's where the... Then, really doubting ourselves. If I didn't see this, if I didn't know this was happening, what else didn't I see? What else don't I know? And I think we can all... In those emotional times, we all have our stories of the crazy places we go. [laughter] Luke: Yes. Mikki: Elizabeth Gilbert always says that, your mind has nowhere to go alone at night unarmed. [laughter] You know our minds can take us some pretty scary places. Luke: So true. Mikki: Especially in that heightened sense, but I love your vulnerability and sort of honesty because like you said, you can't understand what it's like to be me, I can't understand what it's like to be you, but we can see common threads, and I think the support that that offers us is really important, and so I thank you for sort of being there to talk about that. So I guess, how do you support and help clients as they're moving through this, as they're doing that, to be able to trust themselves, hopefully, trust their partners again? I know that you have a pretty "good" co-parenting relationship. Luke: Yeah, I do. Mikki: And those... A lot of people say, "Well, oh, well, you're lucky." Yes, yes, some... You and I are lucky that we have partners... Luke: Of course. Mikki: That are amenable to the co-parenting experience, and it's a choice. Luke: Exactly, and it is... Again, it is different for everybody. It doesn't mean it's easy for anybody, and there are many, many elements that come into play. So I think one of the first things that's really important, particularly when we've already discussed that the kids can form a fuel in terms of, you're driving forward to get you past, or to get you on the journey, you're on the road to some kind of recovery, there's some kind of goal, there's some kind of target. So first of all, it's getting to that place, and often the people I work with, their children are a priority, so that doesn't require much convincing, and I would imagine that's the case for many of your listeners. Mikki: Yeah. Luke: And that can be really useful, because you want to do what's best for those and often what's best for them is usually best for the relationship between yourself and them, their mother or father in the respective examples. So a couple of things is to really explore what reality it was that you had painted to yourself in the relationship, and that was something that I felt I really had to do. It's like, "Well, I thought this, and it turns out it was that." And my story about my own life was well, wrong, at least that's how it seemed. And it's funny as I... Particularly in my earlier years in relationships, I always put relationships as a... Like it's a third entity, so you have one partner and you have the other partner, and then you have this... Almost like a joint savings account of which you both put deposits in. And you're both equally putting your deposits, whether that'd be financial effort or whatever it is that makes up your relationship, and it's almost like the bigger this pot, unfortunately people can't see me with my hands at the moment but doing all the things. This pot is getting bigger and bigger and it's almost like, well, that's a measure of how good your relationship is. Mikki: Oh, I see. Luke: Of course. Yeah. Of course, obviously, as you and I know, a relationship is purely the thought that we have about that other person, and it doesn't really matter what they're experiencing, you are experiencing the love, the care, the trust, the beliefs, the confidence, and all of the things in that other person. It is a very individual experience, despite it really seeming like a joint experience. And that doesn't take that away from it being a joint experience. And of course, if you both align in all of these things, and that's great, it's gonna be a fantastic foundation for a long-lasting relationship. Luke: But if you believe that the other person was responsible in some way for making you feel a certain way, or showing up in a certain way and being responsible for how you were, because one of the easiest things to do post-infidelity is to throw blame. That's very easy to do. It's a very natural human response, particularly, if you... Even if you've not made it consciously aware at the time, particularly when you realize that you don't trust yourself anymore, and of course, when you don't trust yourself, that brings up shame, and then we go inwards. So that's very uncomfortable, and many people don't like it and for a good reason, and an easy response that is to blame and throw it outwards, throw it externally, to take the pressure off yourself. And of course, why wouldn't you? These things happened and it wasn't my fault. I had to look, pulled from underneath my feet. And of course, even though that situation has developed in the way that it has, and you may or may not have been able to affect it, maybe you couldn't. Maybe if you'd done something different, maybe, maybe not that's not really the point. Luke: The point is that, that other person isn't responsible for what you're experiencing right now, your desire to hate and blame and be resentful and bitter and all of that. The only person that's experiencing that is you. You're the only person feeling all of those things. And it doesn't matter how much hate and anger and resentment you have inside, the other person, they're living their life, they're happy, they're fine, they've got their new partner, they've done whatever it is. Not in every case, every case is different, of course. But that's how it can seem. It's like, "Well, you know what, they've got their bit, they're having their cake and eating it and yet here's me suffering the consequences." Luke: So first of all, it's about really learning to take responsibility for feeling what it is you're feeling. And then from that place, then you can start to really put in place the steps to intentionally move forward, whatever that looks like for you. Maybe it is choosing to stay or leave, maybe you have already left and you're now faced with this vast desert of opportunity, but you don't really know where to look. You've identified yourself as this father and parent or a mother and parent. And you've been in this relationship for however long. Everybody knows you as this couple, that couple. It's like you've formed this identity, and all of a sudden you've been ejected in some way. Mikki: Right. Luke: And so you've got... You now need to take responsibility for what happens next. And so I think that's really the start of the journey for most people, is dealing with their own issues and not this blame for others. And of course, the natural step beyond this, is to start to work towards forgiveness, which can be very jarring, particularly in the early days, 'cause why would you want to forgive somebody who has done all the things, who has betrayed you and hurt you. Why would you want to forgive? That's the last thing I want to do. And I remember feeling that as well, but much like the blame and resentment, these experiences that you're feeling, well, you're the only person feeling them. So the forgiveness isn't for them, they don't get off the hook, it doesn't change anything in their world, it changes everything in yours. If you can release that burden and you can let go of that and that weight that you're carrying, that story that you've been telling yourself really start to begin to paint this new picture. Luke: Okay. So it's this dark side of it. And then in terms of more practical, practical sense is particularly where children are involved. Well, children offer this opportunity to create structure. They offer this opportunity to create like a routine of sorts. So using that to help manage your own life is very, very useful and of course, depending on the final dynamics, whether that's been through the courts or not, or whether that's been mutually agreeable or not, 10% custody, 50% custody shared, whatever the final thing is, the point is, your situation is now very different to what it was months or years before. And forming that regularity, that routine for your kids, so they know where they stand, so they know what's expected, because it's very scary for them. It's a very uncertain future for them, just in much in the way that I spoke earlier about trusting the partner, the kids trust us parents. They're relying on us to be there, to be stable and solid and to be these guiding lights for them and... Mikki: Well, the routine and the consistency right, kids do need it because it makes them feel safe. Luke: Of course. Mikki: And I think what you're saying too, is that it benefits us as the parents, because it does the same thing, right. When we're able to focus on that routine, focus on the kids, it sort of naturally allows space and spaces where healing happens. Luke: Exactly. Mikki: So, yeah. I love that you brought that up. And you know there's... I can already hear it. It's like in my mind, I hear you, the mom that's like," Yeah, but you don't know my situation. You don't know how difficult my ex makes things." And I think Luke and I both hear you, and you still get a choice. You still get a choice in your home, what your co-parenting and your parenting looks like on your time. And I think it makes everything harder when we don't feel like we can trust, when we feel like there's so much separation. But I love sort of how logically and simply you've talked about being able to separate, to find the things that you can control, focus on those, and take that responsibility. Luke: Exactly. We live our experience through emotions, and they can be a rollercoaster, as we all know. Mikki: Yeah. Yeah. Luke: And I don't think it matters how could you get at managing those, they're still there. They still happen. We all experience it there's... There's no... It never changes. Mikki: No. Luke: But you can use them to your advantage, and use them in favor rather than against you. And if you spent all your time, you know... For example, for the mothers that are in that situation, you don't know what my ex is like; you don't know what he's like. And it's always this and it's always fighting, we're always at knuckleheads with it. And yeah, of course, it happens a lot. Unfortunately, it's very, very common. But you do get to control, just like Mikki said, you get to control your part in that. And, okay, maybe there's a time where you do have to sort of say, "Okay, well, for now, the way that my life looks today, I don't get to control this, that and that, but I do get to control this. I do get to control what's within my realm, and I'm gonna do the damned best job I can to do that." And then... Mikki: I love that. Well, as much as I could sit here and chat with you all day, I try to be respectful of everyone's time. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you the question I ask all my guests, which is since this is Co-Parenting with Confidence, I'm curious how you define confidence. Luke: Okay. So confidence, I think it's worth giving that we've already spoken about trust, 'cause they are very, very similar words, but they don't have quite the same... Or at least, the definitions are very, very similar. And ultimately it's an ability to predict the outcome. Sorry, it's to trust in someone or something's ability to do something, arguably. So trust, as we've already discussed, trust is formed by beliefs. So this can come over time and such like. But you don't necessarily need a definitive thing to have happened to form trust; that can just be the story that you tell yourself and you can build that up and you can form trust in all kinds of things. Confidence, in its more usual format, I think of being like, people tend to look at the past, they tend to look for evidence for confidence, it's like it has to have happened in a particular way. So if we're looking as to how to build confidence, let's say for example, you might have an objective, a goal, that you're trying to achieve, and then you really need to... So you set that goal and you become committed to it, and then you dig deep, and you become uncomfortable. You become courageous, let's say, and really try and do what you have to do to get this done. Luke: And through this part of this courageous part of your journey, you just build skills, and over time, those skills become second nature. It's a bit like when you learn to drive a car. To begin with, you've got everything all over the place, mirrors, signal, seatbelt, brake, all the rest of it, and then over time those parts of it, those controls become second nature, and what you're faced with is just the concept of driving. You're doing what you're actually trying to do, which is to drive. So once you've learnt these skills, that then creates confidence. Now, where I look at this slightly differently is, I believe that confidence is available from the offset. Because, okay, maybe you don't have the specific skill yet to do that particular thing, maybe you've not done that yet, but you can have confidence in yourself that you know the process. You can be confident that, I'm gonna commit to this goal, I'm going to dig deep and do the work to get that goal, and I'm gonna learn the skill to do it. So you can have confidence in advance for something that you've never done before. And that is where I think confidence has its own place, separate to trust. Mikki: Oh, I love that, thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Luke, for being here today, for sharing your story, for being so honest, for giving us a male perspective. I love it. Luke: You're welcome. Mikki: And how can people find you? Luke: Okay, so the easiest thing to do is probably to go direct to my website, which is www.lifecoachluke.com, and I'm also on social media, Instagram and Facebook @mylifecoachluke.com. Mikki: Awesome. Luke: And then I will be... Hopefully by the time this airs, my first episodes of my podcast, After The Affair with Luke Shilling will be live as well. Mikki: Oh, I can't wait to listen. That's gonna be great. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today and for being here and for all the work that you're doing. Luke: Thank you. Thank you very much. Mikki: It's needed and appreciated. Luke: Thank you, Mikki. Mikki: I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation because I know I did. I found some of the ways that he sees things, how he explained it, how very logical his thinking is, it was very reassuring and helpful for me, and I hope it was for you. Here are a few of the takeaways that I found. Adult problems are adult issues, so doing your best to take responsibility and keep it separate from the children. I know this is easier said than done, right? But adult problems are really adult issues. Luke said that having children can almost be a blessing through infidelity, because it almost forces you to repair the relationship, whether you stay or go, in the best interest of the children. It keeps you focused on what's best for them, and you can also use the routine and the structure that you put in place for your kids to actually find space and healing for yourself. Luke said that it's so easy to throw blame around, especially when we've been betrayed, but blame doesn't change anything. It just continues the negativity for you. And so what we need to do is rebuild the trust, the trust in you. Mikki: When trust has been broken with a partner, it often trickles down, because it shatters our world view. What we believe about ourselves, it creates self-doubt and makes us question everything. So it's really about taking responsibility for what you're feeling, then taking intentional steps forward. And it's okay if you do this just for your kids right now. You use that as fuel until you can find healing and strength for you. I also liked Luke's take on forgiveness. It doesn't let your ex off the hook or change anything in their world, it changes everything in your world. And finally, co-parenting is a choice. It is not easy, but you always have a choice in how you are showing up 100% of the time, no matter what your co-parenting partner is doing. If you wanna connect with Luke, all of his details are in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed this interview, I'd be really grateful if you'd share it with others. I like hanging out on Instagram, so does Luke. So if you share it there, please tag us 'cause we'd love to connect with you. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I'll see you next week, and in the meantime, take really, really good care of you, friend. [music] Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week. [music]