Ep #43: A Conversation with Pam Howard

Mikki: I'm Mikki Gardner, and this is the Co-parenting with Confidence podcast, Episode number 43, A Conversation with Pam Howard. [music] Mikki: Welcome to Co-parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach, with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother. And I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready, and let's dive into today's episode. [music] Mikki: Welcome friend. Have you ever had one of those conversations with a friend that you wish you had recorded it so that you could share it with somebody else 'cause it was just so good? Well, that's what's happening today, but before we dive into it, I wanna say thank you for joining me here today. I know that there are really a gazillion and three things you could be doing and so many great podcasts that you could be listening to. And I'm really grateful that you're here with me and if you're new here, welcome, I'm so glad that you found us. Recently my friend and fellow coach, Pam Howard and I, she had me on her awesome podcast. It's called Less Drama More Mama. It's so good. And it was so much fun. And I love the conversation so much that I wanted to share it here on mine so that you guys could hear it. Mikki: Pam is a master certified life coach and she and I met in a mastermind for coaches. We ended up going on a work retreat, AKA super fun vacation with a little work thrown in, in Hawaii, in January. And then I had dinner with her a couple of months ago when I was in Florida. Every time we're together, I learned so much. And that's why I wanted to share this conversation with you. Pam helps moms who are successful in so many areas of their life, but feel lost when it comes to parenting. I bet you can relate. I know I can. And she's the host of the Less Drama More Mama podcast. And her advice has been featured in HuffPost Parents and Stepmom magazine. She's a licensed clinical social worker trained in couple and family therapy and a school counselor who works with kids from kindergarten to eighth grade and has extensive experience working with kids and parents. When Pam's not supporting moms, just like you and me, she's either counseling kids at school or snuggling her own two amazing children. And then, she says, sneaking off to get squares of dark chocolate in the pantry. [laughter] I can relate to that. So without further ado, I wanna introduce you to my dear friend, an amazing fellow coach, Pam Howard. Let's take a listen. Pam: Hi mama. Welcome back to the show. And for those of you who are new to me, welcome, I'm so happy that you're here. Up until now, I've done an interview every 10th episode and I've decided that I'm not gonna do that anymore. I'm still going to bring you amazing guests and interviews, but I'm gonna do them whenever it feels right. That's the beauty of being your own boss. You get to do whatever you want and I have a wonderful interview for you today, but real quick, before we get to that, I wanna read a podcast review that was submitted last week by Presor1234, titled Less Drama Indeed. Pam: She says, "I love this show. It's full of insight and intentional thinking. I have found that each and every episode is precise to the point with smart topics, enlightening and a delight to hear. I have been listening to Pam's podcast for over a year. I feel more empowered and it has given me a whole new outlook on life. I'm happy to have found your podcast. Thanks so much and keep up the great work." Thank you so much Presor1234. I appreciate you so much. And I'm delighted that the podcast has given you a new outlook on life. That's just amazing. So thank you for leaving that review. And I would love it if more mamas would leave reviews, it helps the show get seen by more people, and the more mamas we can help, the better. Awesome. Okay. Today's guest is my friend, Mikki Gardner. Mikki, and I met through a coaching mastermind group. Pam: And in January we vacationed together in Hawaii with some other amazing coaches. And then just last month, she and I went out to dinner here in Florida, where she was attending a conference. So I know her really well. I'm excited to bring her to the show. And aside from being a certified life coach with the life coach school, she's also a certified conscious parenting coach, a mom to three boys, her son, and two bonus sons and a dog. She co-parents with her ex-husband and his wife with her partner and his ex-wife. Mikki is the host of the Co-parenting With Confidence podcast and has a private one-on-one coaching practice where she helps moms ditch the conflict and frustration of divorce and become strong, loving and confident co-parent without, this is key, [chuckle] without the other co-parent participation. I love it. Mikki is super smart and articulate. I know you're gonna love this episode, so please enjoy. Alright, Mikki. I'm so excited that you're here on the podcast. Welcome. Mikki: Hi. I'm like so excited. I'm giddy. [laughter] Pam: So why don't you start by introducing yourself and telling us about yourself, your family, and what brought you to doing what you do as a coach? Mikki: Yeah, so my name's Mikki, I am a certified life and conscious parenting coach. And I specialize in co-parenting and I really sort of am focused on helping moms ditch the drama and the conflict of divorce and really step into their confidence and power, often without the participation of the other co-parent, which is the best part. [chuckle] We don't get that permission slip often, but what brought me here, currently in my life, I have a 12 year old son. I also co-parent with my partner. He has two kids as well and his ex-wife, I co-parent with my ex-husband and his wife and they now have a baby. Mikki: So, it's kind of a village, it's like who's talking to who. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful because I do have a wonderful relationship with my ex. And it hasn't always been that way, but we've been able to get there. And so I just am very passionate. I think, as I mean we're friends and this journey is not what anyone chooses. Nobody gets married thinking, "Oh, divorce will be okay." You know. You don't bring kids into the world thinking that this is what's gonna happen. And the guilt and the sadness and the grief and everything that comes with divorce, I was unaware of. And I sort of traveled the journey on my own, not knowing that there was help out there. And so I'm really committed to being a presence for women who are sort of on the journey so that they don't have to walk it along because... Pam: Oh, that's beautiful. Mikki: Yeah. I heard someone say, always have older friends, because they've gone through it and they can kind of lead you, but their rear view mirror is your today. And so I really think about that often as I'm coaching and helping, how can I help shed light and teach the tools and the skills that they need to be able to answer their own questions and make their own path. And so I think in a nutshell, that's sort of me. Pam: Yeah. And I'm thinking about like what you just said about their rear view mirror and oftentimes, that older friend or the one who's been through, gives you advice based on their perspective now, which when someone's going through a divorce, it's like, you can't even wrap your mind around it being any different. Like you need somebody there to validate what you're going through right now and just help you, help you find your own way to peace. Mikki: Yeah. I always tell my clients that I know in my heart that they are strong and confident and successful and loving, and it's my job as their coach to hold that belief until they're ready to carry it themselves. And I think that's what you're saying. It's like, we hold that space and that belief for them knowing how extraordinary they are. Until they're able to see it on their own. And I think... Pam: Yeah, and we don't rush them to that realization. It's not like, "Come on, let's get there already." It's like, "Nope, I know that that's possible for you and that's in your future, but like, you're gonna get there whenever you do." Mikki: Well, we just spoke about that for a second. And I'm sure you do have so many clients that come in and say like, it's been three years. I'm sure you're past this. No, you're past it when you've processed it. And when you're past it, there's no time limit on that. There's... Everybody's... Pam: Yeah. And then even sometimes when you've like, sailing along for a while, something will come up and [laughter] bring you right back. So let's talk a little bit about... Okay. So you said, I get along with my co-parent or my ex and wasn't always that way. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got to that place of being able to co-parent peacefully? Mikki: Yeah. Again, my journey was like sort of trial and error and a lot of mistakes that [chuckle] now in hindsight, I look back and I'm like, "Oh, that's what I was doing." Like that's what I needed to do. And I think one of the biggest shifts that was... And when I say these things, I'm not like crediting myself. He's an active participant in this relationship too, but I think there were two things. One, I decided... When I decided to get divorced, I did it with the idea that it didn't have to be awful. There was a lot going on in the relationship that was traumatic. That was very, very difficult for me, personally. But in that pain, I still knew like, at my core, I love my kid and I need to do this for him. And there has to be a different way than the fighting and the conflict and everything that was going on. And so I remember saying to him, I made us coffee, I sat down and said, "Let's call it while we have any amount of good feelings towards one another, and let's figure out how to do this in a different way." Mikki: And I think that belief that there was a different way than sort of the movies and the, all the gossip and the trauma that you hear, man bashing, divorce, negativity, all of that. I sort of chose, I'm going to figure it out. And so I had that kind of, I'm gonna figure it out. I don't know how, but I'm going to, and so I really held tight on that, that we were gonna do this a different way and that someday we would be okay. And I think that belief kind of helped the second thing that I had to do in... Again, this was hindsight. I could see what I did now was, and I helped my clients learn to do, is separate the man that I was married to, the man that I dated and fell in love with and wanted to live my life with. I really had to mourn the death of that person. Mikki: He no longer exists. He does, he's living and breathing and married to another woman and has a child. But the man that I loved and the man that hurt me and all of those things, I had to literally separate it. And now I had to learn to kind of put that over here and mourn that and process that. And as a co-parenting relationship, I had to build a new one with the father of my child, who I had to start to believe had his best interest at heart, was doing his best. Even though I thought it was really awful, [laughter] all those things I had to kind of start like, "Okay, I it's actually a different person." And I think this is important because as we're moms navigating this, we're using all of our past evidence, all of our past information, we know exactly who they are. We know exactly how they think. But if we're changing and evolving, we have to kind of allow space that maybe they are too, good or bad. But I think that's, for me, was an important thing once I started to understand that it was... I'm always going to be in a relationship with him because of my son. And so I actually had to just build a new one. And by building that new relationship, we actually got to have more space. Pam: I love that. I love thinking, "Okay, how do I want this relationship to look?" And really just hopefully being able to... You don't have to have a conversation with him about it even, you can just decide for yourself, how do you wanna show up? But, I mean, amazing that you were able to even have those conversations and talk it out. So one of the things that I read a lot when it comes to co-parenting is like, whatever your difference is, whatever your history, always keep your child's best interest in mind. But how do you help people when their idea of what's in the child's best interest is completely different from the ex? Mikki: Yeah. We're actually going through this in real time right now. So I have to be very careful 'cause I'm like... To your point it's these things don't... You don't wrap it up, put it in a box and it's done. It's not like... Pam: And it's not like, well, it's also not like married couples don't have the same issues. You don't always agree with your spouse, but yeah. I mean, how do you, so I remember, and I'm gonna let you talk in a minute, [chuckle] but I remember when I was first going through divorce and being coached, this thought that I had that we were not on the same team. And everything was like, who's in control and who's right, who's wrong. And it just felt so divisive. And so I had to ask myself the question, "Well, what if we are on the same team?" And like find all the evidence in my brain for how we actually are on the same team. And then that really, really helped me to start looking for those ways that we actually were, and almost helped me like soften my heart around him. So anyway, go on, you... Mikki: Yeah. I love that you bring that up. And it's, I always think of it as like a loosening of the grip. 'Cause we get death grips on these thoughts, these beliefs that we have, again, of who they are, it's like, right now it feels like when I think about it, you're like, "Ha ha ha." Like I'm gonna get him. Like I know this. And whenever I'm like that because I'm human and I find myself, I'm in judgment. I'm in... I'm feeling out of control. I'm feeling fear. So therefore I'm trying to control everyone around me to make myself feel better. And I think between coaching and then getting certified and conscious parenting, that was part of a really big shift for me to start to understand what do I have control over and what don't I, and as long as I... Pam: Oh yeah. Let's talk about that. Mikki: Yeah. What we do have, I mean, I'm sure you talk about this as much as I do. What do we have control over? Our thoughts, our feelings, our actions. What we don't have control over? Everything else. [chuckle] Other people, our children, our acts, the weather, our... Like all the things. And so for someone who is a completely type A control freak, I mean, I was... Pam: I'm with you, their sister. Mikki: Yeah. I mean, you look up control freak in the dictionary. I think that... Pam: There we are. Mikki: There we are. Hi. [chuckle] so for me it was really, again, that healing process and it did not happen overnight. I still have to work on it, but understanding I don't have control over anything that happens in his home. I don't have control over what he says. I don't have control over any of it. What I do have control over is my experience around it. How I'm gonna think. So I'll give you an example, like the one we're going through right now. I don't know if Jason listens to this. [laughter] Mikki: Hope you're alright with this. But so one of the things was YouTube. I don't like... I didn't want my kid to have a phone. I ended up... I had to soften my edges there a little bit. When he turned 11 and... But there's no social media. I try to put a lot of limits on it, but like any young boy, he likes YouTube, he likes these sport shorts and all the things. And so my ex said, "Well, he can use my account." And I said, "I just, I don't feel good about this," but he, my son and my ex are like, "It's gonna be fine." Just it's gonna be fine. Well, sure enough. He's been uploading some... Nothing bad. In the scheme of things, but just kind of immature content that I'm like, "Do you really want this out there when you are an adult?" And so we had... Pam: Oh, he's been uploading videos? Mikki: On his dad's account. [laughter] And his dad was supposed to be in charge of monitoring it. Well, listen, we all... I'm the worst offender, I have every intention of being on top of it every day. And life happens. And sometimes I'm great about it. Sometimes I'm not. And I understand that, I know who my ex is. I know how he is. Like, it's not a shocker that it hasn't been monitored. And so we had to have a conversation this past weekend where I said, "Okay, I was never onboard with this, but we've got to shift something now," And I think because we have the ability to have conversations, that we were able to come to an agreement of like, "How are we gonna handle this?" But part of it was, I could have sat there saying, "See, I told you. I told you this was gonna be a problem, all those things." Instead, I have no control. What I do have is influence. My influence is only going to be effective in how it's presented. Pam: Right. Mikki: And so, I just did a podcast about becoming an influencer in your co-parenting experience... In your co-parenting relationship. Because we can't change other people. We absolutely influence every room we walk in with our energy, with our thoughts, with our actions. And so, I think regardless of if you agree or have the opportunity to have conversations or resolve conflict together, you still have influence. So, we gotta focus on what we do have. Pam: Okay. Yeah, I love this. Now, what is the emotion that you have to generate for yourself in order to have that conversation and be an influencer? Because my guess is, if you're angry, if you're resentful, if you're judgmental, that conversation is not gonna go so well. Mikki: No, that's... You will be influencing that moment in time with anger, with judgment, which whatever you bring in, you will get more of. And I think that's what I was acutely aware of, was I annoyed and upset that we were having to have this conversation when I was so sure it was a bad idea a year ago? Sure. But I think the most important thing is, where am I now. Again, sort of separating what happened in the past, I can stay there and get all upset about it, or I can look at what is. What is happening today? And how am I gonna try to influence that, not in a manipulative way, but the feeling that I have to have is love, love for me, love for my child and the hardest one, love for my ex. Pam: Yes. So I actually have that on my notes to talk about, [chuckle] because that is like, something that I'm most proud of in myself is being able to feel love for my ex. I never thought that was possible. And you talked earlier about like, the examples in the media of all these messy divorces and stuff, I had that in my own life, 'cause my parents divorced. And it was terrible, they never spoke to one another, there was tons of resentment and not open hostility, but just bad energy. And so, yeah, I was so proud of myself when I was able to feel love and show up in a way that felt mature and grown up. And it did, it totally influenced the relationship, to the point where I felt like we had a great relationship. Now I don't know if he felt that way or thought that, but that didn't even matter, because I was thinking it and feeling great about it. Mikki: It didn't matter. Exactly. Pam: Right? Mikki: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's the point that people are like, "You're nuts." When you hear this and you might be listening to this and in conflict, or can't imagine ever even being able to stand in a room with them. I remember I had a client, we started working together and she was so... Just grief-stricken. I mean, two days after Christmas, he walks in the door and I'm done. She had no idea. Three kids, she's just devastated. And so, we had to really do a lot of work around just her healing journey in that, but I remember she texted me one day and said, "OMG, he just came in." 'Cause he would drop the kids off at the bus stop and then leave. And she would always be like, peering out the window and sort of watching what he's doing. She walked outside, it was raining, she said, "Hey, why don't you guys wait inside, do you want a cup of coffee?" Mikki: And it was the moment that she realized, you don't have to tell him I forgive you and I love you, but when she... I believe... And this is part of it. Forgiveness, I think has a really bad rap, and we believe that it's some big moment, the clouds will part and we will suddenly feel all of this for this other person, or we withhold forgiveness thinking that we're somehow punishing the other person. That they're gonna feel our pain, if we feel it. But really to me, forgiveness is just setting down the hurt, setting down someone else's actions and refusing to carry them anymore. And so when she was able to set down that baggage, she opened her heart to be able to say like, "Just come inside and get out of the rain," kinda thing. And it was a huge shift for her. And I think it's... I'm just using a little moment, because when we talk about being able to love our exes, because I do have a ton of love for mine, do I tell him? No, it's not like one day I was like, "I love you." Pam: Right. [laughter] Mikki: No, no, he doesn't need to know. Who needs to know is I need to know. And the other person that needs to see me loving them is my child. And the way that he sees that is that the way that I approach things, the way that I say things. He is consistently late. I mean, consistently. Just the other day, late for picking up, made this poor mom wait like 20 minutes. I was beside myself, texting and apologizing to the woman, like, "Where are you? What are you... " Like, just be on... 'Cause I can't... I hate being late. But one of the things was, I also had to take a step back. He is who he is. He's always been this way. It has nothing to do with me. But if I start in in front of my son about how his dad's always late and this and that, and blah, blah, blah, I'm tearing my kid down. Because we forget that our kids are half of both of us, and they absorb all that. And so, I think trying to be a witness for that and really remembering, that again, I influence more than I know, and are we being responsible with that energy, with those words, with our actions? Pam: I like that, I like that. Because it... Yeah, it focuses on being responsible to our kids for the way that we're choosing to show up. Mikki: Exactly. Pam: That's great. And yeah, and also I like what you said about, it's these little moments. It's not like, I'm walking around all day on cloud and loving him. It's just like in these little moments, it's like, "Yeah, he's just a human trying to get by in the world, just like the rest of us, and I can have compassion for him. I can try to see things from his perspective without necessarily agreeing with it or liking it or anything, but just having compassion," I guess, is the best word for who he is. Mikki: Yeah, and I think where else that shows up, and I don't know if this has been your experience, but the more that I'm able to do that, the more that I'm able to have compassion and love for him actually helps me hold a stronger boundary. Helps me have a... Hold a stronger line, because there are things that happen in his house that I don't agree with. And so when my son comes to my house, "Well, I do it over there, why can't I do it here?" There's an opportunity where I can say, "Well, because that's not right." Or again, I can be very judgmental, or I can... I think when I have that, when we have that ability to be loving and compassionate, we can also just say, "No. I love you and no." Mikki: My favorite five words in the entire universe as a parent. But here, this is why, and I'm gonna hold to it, because I think that's a lot of the experience, especially when you're first navigating co-parenting. I don't know how you felt it, but it's like, they're having more fun over there, or it's all puppies and rainbows over there, and then it's... I'm the hard house or I have to toe the line. When we believe that we become really... We step into those roles. Like, if we feel like... If I thought my ex was just totally loosey-goosey, then I'm like, on my time, we gotta tighten up the ship. And it's like this pendulum that's going back and forth, that our kids are just... It's like one of those pirate ship rides at the Carnival that just goes back and forth. Do we want our kids on that nauseous and disoriented all the time? [laughter] No. So it's like, we gotta get off that ride again and take responsibility for what we do have, and we can do that when we communicate clearly. Like, okay, maybe you eat a lot of sugar at that house, I actually don't live my life that way. I choose to care for my body, whatever it is. You can hold those values without tearing the other person down. And your kid gets to witness both and then choose. Pam: Yes. Yes. True. So true. Okay, let's talk about how your role as a mom changes when now you have to co-parent in different houses? Mikki: Yeah. I think the way that I see it a lot of times, it comes out, it's like you feel like 50% of a parent now. Pam: Yeah, interesting. Mikki: There's less time, therefore, I'm less of a mom. I have less control, I have less access, I have less everything. Less time. And so, when we have that mindset, when we're believing that we show up less than, because we're so consumed by it. I don't know about you, but so many of my clients... And I remember it. I was so devastated when my son would go away. So consumed with the sadness, this shouldn't be happening, I shouldn't have to share him. Pam: It's not fair. Mikki: It's not fair. So much anger. So I'd spend my time in the early days, just keeping myself busy, buffering, probably too much partying, like, all the things that I did to avoid. Well, what I did was I exhausted myself. I was running on fumes, I was angry. Beyond angry. And then when I would have time with my son, that's what I was giving him. The angry, depleted, exhausted version of me. So then I'm feeling bad. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, now he's here and I'm not doing what I should be doing." So I was always on the other 50%, not present. Pam: So I'm thinking about a person listening to this and thinking, "What is she talking about? If I believe that I have less time with my kid, then I'm gonna... " Like, it's the fact. You know what I saying? Like, it's just a fact, Mikki, that I have less time with my kid. What do you... Yeah, can you talk about that? Mikki: Yeah, so it is true. In reality, it is true. What I'm talking about is a belief. When I have a belief that I'm less than and it's starting to do the work of understanding, I'm still the mom. No one is taking that away. Is it changing? 100%, it is. Are the dynamics different? Absolutely. Is the time different? Yes. So, okay, that is all the true facts this... You know? Pam: The circumstance, yeah. Mikki: The circumstances. Now, what do I wanna do with it? Do I wanna continue to focus on what I don't have? Do I wanna continue to focus on the fact that it's not fair and that it shouldn't be happening this way? Because when I do again, I'm like, sort of always split, but I'm never present. And so, I think the work probably that you and I do is really starting to understand what is. What is happening? And then what do I have control over? My experience... Pam: Now you think about it. Mikki: Yeah, my experience of it. And so, I think the goal is to be the duality of everything, meaning, I can be sad that I don't have 100% time with my kid, and I can still be present and make the most of what I do have. And I know that there are... I mean, I have clients that don't have access to their children in the time that they don't have them. It is excruciating. I mean, that's the one thing that I tell moms is that... They ask, and I'm sure they ask you, when will I feel better? When will I be okay when my kids are gone? I don't know that you're supposed to be. I actually don't believe you are. I don't actually believe that I should ever enjoy dropping my kid off on those days. I still don't like it. Because I'm a mom, we are wired biologically, physiologically to take care of our children. So we're asking ourselves to do something that is against our nature, but what I can do is realize the circumstances that I am in, and how do I wanna show up for that? Pam: I mean, I think it's interesting that... I mean, I have friends that would give anything to drop their kids off at someone else's house for a week. [laughter] Mikki: I know. Pam: You know what I mean? And I got to a place too where it was like, I could enjoy... Mikki: Oh, I do. Yeah. Pam: Every time, of course. Mikki: 100%. Yeah. Pam: And be grateful. Yeah, so... Mikki: But I think it's... And I think to your point, that mom who's sitting there, who's in the muck. Who is way down, it's like quick sand. Who feels like she's never gonna get out of it. Well, the way out is the shift in perspective. The way out... Pam: Yeah. And it starts with just accepting the reality of the situation and not resisting it and thinking it should be any other way, 'cause it is what it is. Yeah. Okay. What would you say are some basic like dos and don'ts of co-parenting? Mikki: Number one do, take care of yourself. Figure out your priorities. And you are actually number one on the list, because you can't pour from an empty cup. We've all heard that. There's a reason they tell you to put your oxygen mask on first before assisting your child. Because if you're passed out, you can't put it on them. And so, I think really learning how to set your priorities is a huge shift. I mean, we have a hot mess mom culture that I think... And then you add divorce on top of it, and it is... There is a lot happening there, so just do take care of yourself. Pam: Okay. So let me pause you there and just let's talk about, what does that even look like? What does it look like to take care of yourself? Mikki: Yeah. So, I know everybody talks about self-love and you should love yourself and all of those things, and it's like, What the heck does that even mean? I think that loving yourself means to intentionally fill yourself up, to intentionally put fuel into you. It's like, if you start... Go on a road trip, you wouldn't pack the car, get everybody in it, and not fill up the tank and then run out of gas and then beat your car up on the side [chuckle] of the road screaming at it for running out of gas, you wouldn't. Because it needs gas. We are just animals. We are souls living in an animal body on this experience. That animal body needs support. And so for me, I think it's about what do we need to do to actually care for ourselves. Sleep, go out on a walk. Eat good food, drink water. And I think one of the best ways to do it, and what I work with clients a lot, and I do in my own life, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, when I feel that sort of rising tide in my body where I feel like I'm gonna blow, just taking a breath. Just hand on your heart and one big deep breath and then ask, what do I need in this moment? Pam: Yes, I was just coaching... I had a group call last night and we were talking about that exact question and how it's so powerful... Mikki: So powerful. Pam: To just stop and ask yourself what do I need right now and give yourself what you need. Mikki: Whatever it is. Yes. I think we complicate it, we think, "Well, I can't have everything I need," Thinking it's this huge, big thing. When we really ask, sometimes it's just asking the question. "I need to be acknowledged. I need to be heard. I need a glass of water. I need a snack." [chuckle] Pam: So, my client last night was saying when she asked herself that question, she went and changed out of her itchy work clothes into something more comfortable. And then she was so much better able to show up for her kid who was like whiny, and just doing that one thing of changing her clothes, just one little thing that she needed in that moment. It wasn't everything, it wasn't like... Really what she wanted to do was to just leave her kid and go to sleep, but changing into her pajamas was one little thing that was helpful. Mikki: Yeah. And I think it's... Again, it's not changing everything, it's changing... It's just giving yourself, and it's building the muscle to get into the practice of doing it. It feels weird at first, but then you get into the practice of it. I think the other really important thing is to be very clear, and this is often easier with help. I do have a little worksheet if you wanna include it, I'm happy to send it through, but learning to realign our expectations. If there is one thing that trips us all up in the world, it is expectations. Pam: Yeah. Mikki: And an expectation is simply a story that we have in our head of the way things "should be" and it's so detailed. We know everything about the way that it should be, but the problem with the expectation is they're rarely communicated, and we rarely even are aware that we have them. So, they're unconscious, they're un-expressed and then they never get met ever, ever. It never happens. So, those expectations that are playing in our head are really a huge source of conflict, of suffering, of continued drama. And so clearing up, doing the... And it's a constant practice of expectations versus reality, because the more clear we can get there and then align our expectations towards what we actually want and is doable, that is a huge move. And I think that's part of that healing journey, and part of creating a good relationship going forward, is creating a relationship that's based on reality. Pam: And it doesn't mean you can't have expectations or you can't make requests of your ex. But don't... And I'll link to also my episode on the relationship manual. Mikki: Oh good, yeah. Pam: This is what we're talking about here is just you can have those expectations, but don't hang your emotions on whether or not they're met. So that's the distinction. Okay, I know I asked about dos and don'ts. You have any more? Mikki: I do. I think the other thing is, there are often don'ts... Don't expect your ex to be emotionally supportive, don't expect a friendship, don't expect to receive their permission or approval or validation because as long as we are focused on those things, we're not showing up, we're not taking responsibility, we're waiting for that frankly isn't theirs to give us anymore. Pam: Was it ever in the first place? Mikki: Not really, but I think when you're married, you kind of make that assumption, right? Pam: Yeah. Mikki: And so... It's again, sort of understanding what is this new relationship, what can I expect from it? And then seek out what you need, support wise, create a network of support without assuming that they're gonna do it. Pam: Yeah, good stuff. Mikki: Yeah, and I think the other things are always, don't expect them to communicate the way you do, don't expect them to parent the way that you do it. Even if you were married, it would still be the same thing. And so I think it's really just... The biggest do is do take responsibility for yourself, do care for yourself, do show up and start to decide who it is you wanna be, and that's a very big thing, and often it starts with deciding what you don't want in your life, who don't you wanna be, and then we start... It's deciding who we do wanna be, deciding what kind of mom we wanna be, who we wanna be as a mom, making that declaration for ourselves, or at least getting the idea, and then back filling it with all the actions that support it. And so I think that's the biggest do, is get really, really clear on what you want long-term and then start today the actions that can get you there. Pam: Yeah, and then of course, I always go back to the thoughts that will fuel those actions, and one of them that just I'm thinking of right now is my kid or my kids are having the exact experience that they're supposed to have. I believe that. Mikki: I do too. Pam: Because it is the experience they're having, so it's the one that they're supposed to have, and if that means there's different rules in the different houses or whatever, it's all good, it's all just... We're just gonna get through it and... Not fighting it every step of the way. Mikki: Yeah, if there's one thing that we all could learn more of, if we all understood that change is inevitable, it's the only thing we're guaranteed, and actually how "well" you do in this life is how well you navigate change, so when we're looking at co-parenting, when we're looking at transitions, we can look at it like you said, "This shouldn't be happening. My kids shouldn't have to experience this," or can you shift into a mindset, this is actually teaching them to navigate change and how am I supporting that. If I'm showing up to the transition, "Aww, sweetie pea, you shouldn't have to go through this, this is awful." It might feel loving in the moment, but it's telling your kid, this shouldn't be happening. So it's really, again, those sort of shifts into, like you just said, the thoughts, what are the thoughts that are supporting it, and we start by believing who we wanna become, and then when I say be, like who are you being? Being always for me equals thinking, feeling, acting, it's like one thing. And so we at who are you being? And that is that it encompasses all of those things. And they have to be aligned for us to really be that influence that we wanna be in life. Pam: Yeah, this is so good. I feel like I wanna get on to a whole new topic, but I'm conscious of the time. Mikki: I know. Pam: But maybe we'll have you back another time because since you have experience with blended family, and... You mentioned in the beginning co-parenting with your new partner, and then co-parenting with your ex and his new partner. It's just so interesting, I haven't had that experience. So it's interesting to think about all the... Mikki: We'll need like six hours, on that. Pam: I know. [laughter] I know, but it's interesting. I mean, all the same stuff applies, I would imagine, just staying in your lane and managing yourself and how you wanna show up in all of it, so... Mikki: Well, thank you... Pam: Lots to talk about. Yeah, so tell us... Thank you. Tell us how we can find you and how people can work with you if they want to get coaching on this co-parenting stuff. Mikki: Oh, thanks, Pam. Yeah, so I'm on Instagram just @MikkiGardner and the spelling of my name is M as in Mary, I-K-K-I G-A-R-D-N-E-R. That's also my website. So that's kind of easy. But Instagram, I would say that's typically where I am, I work with clients one-to-one at this point, and really take that deep dive, again, wanting to be a part of their journey and really to be there to help support as they sort of re-build relationships in themselves and post divorce. Pam: Love it. Alright, so everybody... And go check out Mikki's podcast. Mikki: Oh gosh, thank you, Pam. Pam: Hello. [laughter] Mikki: Hello. Yes, I do have a podcast, Co-parenting with Confidence, that I just love, and I hope to have you on soon, so it's just a lot of episodes about different topics around co-parenting and then interviews with some different experts, and so it's lots of fun. Pam: Cool, and I'll of course link to all of it in today's show notes, so go check that out and thank you so much. Mikki: I really enjoyed that conversation with Pam, and I hope you did too. There are some takeaways that I wanted to share, you know one of them is a lot about how we talked about the need to separate the relationship that you're now in as a co-parent from the relationship you had when you were married to your ex. We have to separate it, grieve it, and let it go so that we could build a new relationship with the person in front of us. Another takeaway is to ask yourself the questions that support what you want, those questions that kind of soften your heart a little bit, Pam offered a few different ones like, how are we similar? How are we on the same team? What do we agree on? These things don't happen overnight. Mikki: But again, just sort of loosening the grip or softening the edges really help us shift into a different perspective, and I also loved that it is possible to learn to love your ex, it's not something you have to share with them or tell them about or tell anybody about, but when we're able to find that love again in a different way, it helps us show up so much differently and so much more powerfully in the co-parenting relationship. If you enjoyed that conversation, we would be so grateful if you would share it with others. Please just take a screen shot and then post it on Instagram and tag both me and Pam, she's @LessDramaMama and that way we can connect with you. Thank you so much for spending this time with me, I'll see you next week, and in the meantime, take a really, really good care of you, friend. [music] Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit co-parentingwithconfidence.com, I'll see you next week.