Ep #25: A Conversation About Moving On with Michelle Dempsey-Multack

Mikki: I'm Mikki Gardner, and this is the Co-Parenting with Confidence podcast, episode number 25, A Conversation with Michelle Dempsey-Multack of Moms Moving On. [music] Mikki: Welcome to Co-Parenting with Confidence, a podcast for those courageous moms out there who wanna move past the conflict and frustration of divorce and show up as the mom they truly wanna be. My name's Mikki Gardner. I'm a certified life and conscious parenting coach, with my own personal dose of co-parenting experience. Throughout my co-parenting journey, I have learned to become confident in who I am as a woman and a mother, and I'm here to help you do the same. If you're ready to learn what it takes to become a great co-parent and an amazing example to your children, well, get ready and let's dive into today's episode. [music] Mikki: Hello, friend. I'm super excited because today, we have a really special guest. Michelle Dempsey-Multack of Moms Moving On is here with us. Michelle is a beautiful human and a coach, certified divorce specialist, and author of her new book, Moms Moving On: Real-Life Advice on Conquering Divorce, Co-Parenting Through Conflict, and Becoming Your Best Self. Michelle hosts a weekly podcast, Moms Moving On, and writes regularly for Parents, Scary Mommy, and others. She's a former New Yorker who now lives in Miami with her husband, her daughter, and her step-daughter, so without any further ado, let's just dive right into today's conversation. Mikki: Hi, and welcome back to the Co-Parenting with Confidence podcast, and today, we have an amazing guest that I'm so so excited about. Michelle Dempsey-Multack from the Moms Moving On community, her amazing podcast, which you have to listen to. She is a divorce coach and also soon to be author of the Moms Moving On: Real-Life Advice for Divorce and Co-Parenting book. And I'm so excited about this, so... Michelle: Thank you. Mikki: I can't wait to hear all the things about it. But first, let me just jump in and say welcome. Super excited to have you here, and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself. Michelle: Thank you. Well, I'm excited to be here, and I very much enjoyed our conversation on my podcast, so it's always fun for me to turn the tables and be the one in the hot seat, but what got me here, that's like a really heavy question. So I'll give you the cliff's notes. I'm a child of divorce, a very, very contentious, ugly divorce that, I don't know, I've survived by the skin of my teeth with very little emotional support, because back when I was a kid, I don't think therapy for children was as popular as it is now. There was no social media. My mom was an immigrant to this country, didn't really know her options in terms of helping me. And then because of my unresolved issues, I had a history of just being... Jumping from relationship to relationship, all toxic, all unhealthy. Michelle: And the last one for me was my marriage. And while my ex was a wonderful person, we were just not healthy together, and our marriage imploded and I found myself divorced with a two-year-old and thought, okay, well, something's gotta change and it's probably gotta be me. And in the interim, I was doing so much learning about myself and working on myself, and I was, at the time, already a contributing blogger for parenting outlets like Scary Mommy and Creative Child, and now Parents magazine, and they let me shift the focus of my content to divorce, which was great because it was almost a way for me to, I don't know, put something out into the universe and see if somebody would bite because I was kind of alone in my friend group when it came to divorce and co-parenting. Everybody was still having babies and going on date nights, and here I was in my early 30s alone with Bella. Michelle: And so, as I started putting this information out there and sharing it on Instagram, my following really grew, and I think it was because at the time, there weren't all these divorce accounts and co-parenting accounts. People really weren't talking about it five years ago, the way they are now, and it turned into people following me in droves, asking me questions I didn't know how to answer, so that's why I started the podcast and brought on experts like yourself to come on and talk about all the things people needed help with. And then I wanted to be able to provide that help to people, so I got certified as a coach and then became a certified divorce specialist. And around that time, I was offered a book deal from Simon & Schuster to write sort of like... I think it's like the What to Expect When You're Expecting... Mikki: Oh sure. Michelle: For divorce for young moms. It's called Moms Moving On: Real-Life Advice on Conquering Divorce, Co-Parenting Through Conflict, and Becoming Your Best Self, and it's about 30 chapters and it takes you through everything, from the first morning you wake up as a separated person, to your first weekend without the kids, to dealing with a high conflict ex-spouse, and then rebuilding your life again. So I'm really excited to put that out into the world and add author to my bio and see where that takes me. Mikki: Yes. Well, what a beautiful journey. I love sort of... I think so often, many of us, they say, "How did you get in this?" It's trial by fire. Right? It's like we need to learn what we need, and then... Michelle: Yeah. Mikki: We can share with the world. So I'm grateful that you shared your story with us and I'm so excited to read the book. Michelle: Thank you. Mikki: I think one thing that I really recognize from your Instagram, from our talks together, is your sort of specialty and kind of clear no nonsense approach to high conflict because this is something that a lot of people experience and it feels very disorienting. We feel very helpless to know what to do, and so I would love to hear what you think is the biggest struggle when it comes to handling and dealing with a high conflict ex. Michelle: Well, first of all, if you're coming out of a relationship with a high conflict ex, chances are that in the marriage, you gave up so much of your power to this person just to keep the peace, like you were sick of fighting. You were just kind of looking for the emotional validation that a partner should give you, and you sort of just said, "Here, take all my power. Do with it what you will." And then you get divorced, and you're like, "Okay, great. I found the strength to leave and I'm not with this person anymore and I can move on," but you're so emotionally connected to this person still, and not in the sense that you love and miss them, but in the sense that their words still hurt, their attempt at control still sort of brings you to your knees. Michelle: And here you are, a year or two into your divorce, like, "Why did I even leave? We could have just stayed together." So I think the answer to your question is boundaries. I don't think people realize the importance of, not just the physical boundary, which is divorce, but the emotional one which says, "You're not allowed in here anymore. You're not allowed to infiltrate my emotions. You're not allowed to dictate how I spend my time with the kids. You need to be way over there and let me regain control over my life again." Mikki: Yeah, so I love that and I could... I mean, I could talk about boundaries forever, so I'm curious if you'd help describe what boundaries are and look like as you teach them. Michelle: Sure. There are physical, emotional and tactical boundaries. Physical being: Don't come into my space. Tactical being, using tools to keep distance. If it were like a rabid dog in your yard, you would put up a fence. That's a tactical boundary. Right. And then emotional, which are not giving into requests, not fighting back every time you get a text thread of disparaging messages calling you a bad mom or a horrible person for leaving the marriage, not catering to your ex's emotions because you think it's going to make the divorce easier. It's only going to make it harder. So, putting up these walls that say, "We have a parenting plan or a divorce decree, and that's how we govern our lives now when it comes to you and I," and not allowing anything else... No coercion, no manipulation. It takes time to be able to learn how to do that, but that's essentially where you set the boundaries, and that's what boundaries are. It's putting up this wall of armor around yourself that just says, "No. You do not get to impact me anymore, in any way, shape or form." Mikki: Yeah, I love that. And I think, for my audience, 'cause I do talk about boundaries, and it's... I always like clarify that a boundary is not what the other person will do. It's not about the other person's actions, and solely about what you will do. Michelle: Absolutely. Mikki: It's almost like a property line that we draw around ourselves to... And it's all about what we will do within that bubble. And so... Michelle: Oh yeah. Mikki: I love how you're talking about that. Michelle: That's absolutely... I mean... We know we can't control anybody else's behavior, us setting boundaries is not gonna change how our exes treat us. It's going to change how we respond and how we're able to emotionally untie ourselves from these people. And you can't try and control anything more than that, but it takes consistency, and it takes a lot of time and practice. And I'll work with clients who say, "I've been following the boundaries, and I wake up every day and decide which boundaries I'm gonna set and he's not changing." And I'm like, look, because he's not gonna change. You're going to get better at this, and this is going to be easier for you. Michelle: And it's all an inside job and a really great lesson and self-control too. I am very impulsive, Mikki. I used to get a text from my ex and I couldn't pull over to the road fast enough to shut off my car and start firing back. The second I learned to put a boundary around that and say, okay. This doesn't need my immediate attention right now. Just because he's saying something doesn't make it true. I'm gonna leave this for later or I'm not gonna answer it at all. That's the boundary I put on myself, so I could start exercising some self-control without getting constantly pulled into the drama. Mikki: Yeah. So, how do you support yourself to keep that? I'm curious because I think we all... In theory, it sounds great. I'm just not gonna respond. And then we have those impulse control, so how do you help people and your clients maintain that? Michelle: Thankfully, the clients that I work with, we develop a really great rapport. Right. And so, even though we'll meet weekly or bi-weekly, sort of in a clinical doctor-patient type of relationship, they have access to me, most often my phone number, my email, and they will literally... I'll tell them, I'm like, "If you feel you are going to fall apart because you get a message or an email or even you hear from opposing counsel on an issue that they're trying to negotiate that's scaring the shit out of you, get in touch with me. We're gonna work through this together." And very often, it's just, take a deep breath. Just because your ex is asking for 50-50 doesn't mean that's gonna happen. And if it does, what's worst case scenario there. Let's play out what's the worst that could happen there. Michelle: Just because he's demanding you switch a day with him and calling you a bad mom if you don't, let's take a step back and realize what's gonna happen if you don't switch that day with him. Literally nothing. So it's really just repetition and practice of taking a step back, recognizing that this person is not God and doesn't make the rules, and it's not gonna change the outcome of our lives if we don't give in to their every need and complaint. And every day just practicing the same mantra, "Just because he says something doesn't make it true. His emotions are not my problem." For a long time, I was selling bracelets, NMFP, Not My F-ing Problem. I don't wanna curse on here. As a reminder, because I am a people pleaser, so it's like the perfect storm. Being a people pleaser and having to untie yourself from somebody who controlled you emotionally, that's hard. And so you need to remind yourself every day. And I'm five years out and I still have to do it. Mikki: Absolutely. Michelle: I still have to look at my phone and say, "Okay, I don't need to do this right now." And just put it down and walk away. Mikki: Absolutely, I love that, and I love that reminder too, that it's, you're five years out. You're the expert right here, and I know I still struggle with things, and it's a process. And it's not a destination that we arrive to and then we're done. It is a process, and the more we can do it... Michelle: It is such a process. Yeah. Mikki: Yeah. I'm curious for you sort of what other... And I love that idea of just being willing to everyday practice like, "This is not my problem." Right? Over and over, but what are other strategies do you feel like if you just had maybe one to offer someone who's just starting the process. Michelle: Never respond when you're emotional. I think that goes across the board for all relationships. Right? Mikki: Sure. Michelle: For your professional relationships, for your ex, with your lawyer. Again, I'm impulsive. I made a lot of emotionally-based decisions during my divorce that I can't take back now, so give yourself some time and space between the request or the trigger and your emotions so that you can come back with a level-headed answer or response or realize you don't have to give one at all. I can tell you... You see these memes about like, "I know I healed when... " In my personal life with friendships, when recently, I had an issue with a friend that really upset me, really, really upset me, and the first thing I wanted to do was grab my phone and let her know how much he upset me. She was texting me 'cause she knew I was upset and I said, "Listen, I love you, but if I say something now, I may say something I regret. Can you give me a few days to come down from this and then we'll talk?" And it was in that moment that I know that, my divorce helped me get to that place. Mikki: Yeah. Michelle: I felt so emotionally evolved in that moment because I was able to say, "Look, I know I'm triggered. I love you and respect you enough to not mess up this friendship. Let me swallow this for a little bit and then we'll deal with it." And that's really the same approach I have with my ex. I don't love him, but I love my child, and because I love my child, I'm constantly focusing on taking the emotion out of every exchange, every issue, and just saying, "Okay, what's best for Bella here?" Mikki: Yep, I love that. And there's two things I think I wanna sort of reflect back and add on. As a conscious parenting coach, this is what we do. This is... It's not about what's happening with the other person, what's happening with your child, but our first gut response is always to learn to go inward, and what is happening for me in this moment. So what you're articulating so, so well is that when we're flooded with those emotions, we can't make a clear decision. We have to calm down, slow down and figure out what's happening for me here so that we can choose the next course of action. Michelle: Right. Mikki: And I think a lot of people, what you just described, you made it look so easy. Over time, you learn this and I think... Michelle: But that's why I share though, that I'm still... This is... I'm still a work in progress, and I don't feel... Mikki: Mm-hmm. 100%. Yeah. Michelle: I don't feel that, if you're expecting to just be healed, and be better at all of this stuff, that's asking a lot of yourself. I think we change and our lives are constantly evolving, and so are our exes. Your ex may be in a bad place when you separate and then maybe he's now getting married and he's in a better place, or you're now getting married and you're in a better place. And so, it's you're constantly gonna change your emotions, what they bring to you and how you feel about it will change, and so you have to be open to letting this be a work in progress always. Mikki: Yeah, I love that. And as emotions go up, with our brain, it just... Intellect goes down. It's like we have to just recognize what's happening and chemically in our heads, things are changing, and so we have to be willing to give ourselves the space, like you talked about, to de-escalate, to be able to have the clear head to move on and... Michelle: Exactly. Mikki: It's this evolutionary structure in our body and how it works, and I think... I just wanted to point it out because normalizing that, we all experience that all the time. And so it's learning to see the triggers and realize I need... I need some space from it. And to be able to make those choices from that space, so... I love that, and how you brought that full circle and how it applied in your life. I think... I don't wanna keep you all day and I wanna always keep these sort of... You've given us so much to think about as it relates to conflict and boundaries and strategies of how you show up, which is always what we can control, but I'm curious, 'cause it is Co-parenting with Confidence, so I'm always curious, what is your definition of confidence and how does it show up and how do you create it in your life? Michelle: My definition of confidence is not needing anybody's approval or validation for the choices that I make, especially when it comes to parenting. I remember when my child was much younger and I was new to the whole mom game, and she started school for the first time, and I kind of put myself... Compared myself to the other moms and how they were doing things. I was not very confident then, but as I became a single mom, I was like, "Well, hey, if I don't believe in my parenting choices, nobody else is going to." And so for me, confidence was really being able to take a step back from other people's opinions and do what I know in my heart felt right, and I think that really comes when you learn to trust yourself and when you believe in your own abilities to be a great person, parent, partner, mother, friend, and really honoring the voice inside of you that says, "This is the thing you need to do," even if it makes you stand alone and people don't understand it. Mikki: I love that definition. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I am curious. How do people find you? 'Cause I want people to be able to find you. 'cause this is so valuable. Michelle: Yeah. I would love that. Instagram, I'm TheMichelleDempsey. If you Google my book Moms Moving On, it's for sale everywhere. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all sorts of bookstores, books.com. And my podcast is Moms Moving On. It streams everywhere that podcasts are streamed, and my website is momsmovingon.com. We have a free membership community for women who want to connect with other divorce mamas. We have a Facebook group, we do workshops. We have an online database of resources, so all of those places are where you can find me, and if you want to connect with me personally and are interested in one-on-one coaching, you can just email me at [email protected]. Mikki: That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And... What would you... I'm curious, one little piece of advice for a mom who is ready to move on. What do you think the most... The first little step might be? I know we talked about conflict, but... Michelle: I end my, each podcast with that same question. I think my biggest piece of advice is to trust yourself. There's gonna be a lot of noise from people who don't understand your decisions. Why did you get divorced? He was such a nice guy. Or, why did you leave me? You're such a terrible person. Trust yourself. You came to this place for a reason, and you need to understand that things do really happen for a reason and will work out the way they're supposed to, so trust that. Mikki: Yeah, and I think one thing too that I just wanna add to it is that, Michelle and I are both very committed to wanting to be a guide in this process, for clients and for women, 'cause as you so beautifully said at the beginning of this, there didn't used to be as many resources for women, and it is so... I hear all the time, "I'm the only one. Nobody else that I know is experiencing these things." And so, I just wanna make sure that those of you who are listening, you're not alone in this. There's communities out there. There's people here to help you and to be guides on this journey. Michelle: Yeah. There are communities, and then there are sub-communities, and then there are sub-communities of that. Divorce, in general, then it's divorcing a high conflict person, then it's divorcing a first responder. All sorts of... Same sex divorce. There are so many different ways to feel supported now, and I'm taking that step into saying, "I'm here to be a part of your group and feel inspired by everyone else is gonna be very helpful. Yeah. Mikki: I encourage everyone listening to step out and do get the help you need and the resources that you need, 'cause they are out there. Well, thank you, Michelle, so much for being here with me. I'm so grateful and I cannot wait to share this with my audience and spread the amazing messages that you offer us, and congratulations on becoming an author. Michelle: Thank you. Mikki: How good was that conversation? I just adore Michelle. I love how down to earth and approachable she is, and how applicable and useful her advice is. It's something that I could listen to over and over and just keep taking away nuggets from. Here are some of my takeaways. One, never respond from emotion. Jost because you get the text, the email, or the nasty comment does not mean you have to respond. I know we talk about this a lot in the podcast, but I love how just clear cut Michelle puts it. Number two, we need to untangle ourselves from our acts, from the marriage, from those patterns that are keeping us, so that we can be free to show up as the mom and the co-parent we really wanna be. And that un-tangling process is so important. And three, trust yourself. Not everyone is gonna agree with or get your decisions, they're not supposed to. You have to trust yourself and let go of trying to control everyone else's feelings around your life. Mikki: Thank you so much to Michelle for being on the podcast today, for sharing time with us and for sharing her wisdom. That's our show. But before we go, I just want to let you know that I'm gonna be making some really fun announcements in the next couple of weeks, so I wanna make sure that you get those announcements. I'll make them here, but also, please go over to my website and sign up for the mailing list, because that way, you're guaranteed not to miss out on any of the information. The link is in the show notes, or you can just go to www.mikkigardner.com so that you're always in the know of the fun, exciting things I have coming up in this community. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate it, and I will see you next week. In the meantime, take really good care of you, friend. [music] Mikki: Thanks for listening to Co-parenting with Confidence. If you want more information or resources from this podcast, visit coparentingwithconfidence.com. I'll see you next week.